Does Retirement overhypes?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by poetgooner, Dec 2, 2016.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I'll reply later this week on some other points ("Real Madrid won without Ronaldo while [...] couldn't" and "World Cup was only competition" vs all-time lists) but this link really lost me when the call is made that "Beckham is more skillfull than Zidane". Hell, no.
     
    Estel and carlito86 repped this.
  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    That's because it's non debatable.
    The only thing open for discussion is if Maradona was really the number 1 player of all time

    when people start discussing if he was top 5 top,top 10 etc that's when it becomes blasphemy.
    Maradona is unmatched till today in technical ability and a top 2 all time dribbler from 79-86.
    In addition to this he was IMO the greatest playmaker of all time capable of dispatching every single type of pass including some passes that were only unique to him and he did it with the regularity that only the best of playmakers can
     
  3. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    And then there are the opinions on the other end of the spectrum as well on that link, like the below listed ones,

    - Zidane is the best player in the world. No one else looks so comfortable with the ball in all situations. No one else has that ability to make space for themselves in ultra-tight situations. No one else can drive forward and beat men with the consumate ease of this man. Rivaldo, Figo and Beckham are all wonderful players but Zidane is the best - a master of his craft.

    - Overrated? Zidane has accomplished in a few short years what greats (Cruyff, Van Basten, Eusebio) did not achieve in their entire careers. To call him undeserving and overrated is ridiculous.

    - The Supreme Court would have demanded a re-count if Zidane hadn't won - he's on a different level to the rest. The truly great players win silverware for their sides like Pele, Cruyff with Ajax and Maradona with Napoli and Argentina. Zidane is up there with them

    - There is no question that Zidane is the best player in the world at the moment. He inspired France to win the World Cup in 1998 and the European Championships this year, He got the award not because he plays in Europe or plays for one of the top teams in Europe, but because he is a footballer with no equal.



    Ultimately, the two most often cited reasons for not awarding him the FIFA Player of the Year trophy as per the fans whose comments are on display, seem to be,

    1) His headbutt on Jochen Kientz caused him to not be a good example to win such trophies (major reason why he lost out on the Ballon d'Or that year)

    2) The award was too eurocentric and did not consider players who were plying their trade in South America and doing well there (like Romario and Riquelme)

    Not to say that you don't see the occasional overrated, or doesn't dominate games, or inconsistent jabs thrown at Zidane as well, but you also get opinions requesting FIFA to look beyond Europe by looking at the Bangladeshi player Imran Khalfe who scored 10 goals in one game, or ones commenting on how Batistuta's exploits with Fiorentina made him the most deserving candidate or ones saying how the best player in the world at that moment was Roberto Carlos.

    Personally, I think that people who consider Zidane to be inconsistent (specifically for clubs) should check his ESM appearance tally - most appearances for an attacking player of his era and 2nd most overall beyond Roberto Carlos (for some perspective, the current era's most appearances are with Messi/CRonaldo, who are considered super consistent). Those who say he is/was overrated need to define what was the context of the rating by which they think he is/was being considered above his station as a player. Frankly, any player can be overrated if one assigns imaginary attributes of infallibility to them, like calling them "unstoppable on their day" and never defining how many games it takes for that "day" to dawn or whether the said player has any control on making a regular day, "their day", since otherwise its all up to luck and any player can look godlike with enough luck. And the ones who said Zidane can't dominate games, that too in 2000 after the Euros, sure must have some weird ass definition of dominating a game. Considering that in that very year he had his performance vs Portugal in the Euro SF, which was about as dominant an AM display in a high profile game, as you'll ever find (unless these people equate scoring/assisting with dominating, in which case they probably now think he dominated Sevilla, the double UEFA Cup winning kind, in the season 05/06 at the age of 33, with 3 goals and an assist in a 4-1 win while playing for that Real Madrid team of 05/06 :rolleyes:). Either way, these games are proof that he showed both kinds of domination :p.
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  4. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I remember that seville away game like it was yesterday. I was even more amazed when I found out it was the first and only hattrick of his career.
    I completely agree that the standards applied to Zidane are not the same as those applied to other players of his ilk.

    That real Madrid side in 2005/06 was a shadow of its former self.
    All of their star players had either left the club or were in decline from zizou,fat 9 to Raul,figo joining inter etc
    David Beckham,robinho and guti were arguably their most in form players

    don't you find it highly ironic that both Ronaldinho and Romario had their so called legendary performances against the arguably the 2 worst real Madrid sides of the last 25 years
    Romario scoring a hattrick in 93/94 Inc 2 tapins against a real Madrid finishing 4th place in the league
    Ronaldinho scoring his two solo goals against a completely unremarkable defence including a young relatively inexperienced ramos and the above average michel salgado

    The fact is Zidane was never overrated at any stage of his career (a unanimous top 2-3 player of a footballing era cannot deemed to be overrated)
    It is only when some fanboys claim he was on par or close to the Diego,Cruyff,Di Stefano that he becomes overhyped
    CILNpgdWIAAQsDj.png
     
  5. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #55 leadleader, Dec 21, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
    I like watching Zidane more than I like watching Figo, but having watched a ton of Real Madrid games rather recently, I was surprised by the number of times that Figo was either as good or better than Zidane. I honestly do not understand what's the deal with Zidane's ESM appearance tally; in his Real Madrid career he never proved to be consistent, not even when compared to players in his own team - there's quite a lot of documentation about it as well. Also, Figo in 2000 was clearly better than Zidane in 2000 - in my opinion, Zidane's headbut is a large non-factor, because Figo was clearly better at league level, and because Figo actually played at an excellent level at the Champions League; Zidane's Euro was nowhere near enough to completely close that gap, particularly so when considering Zidane's abysmal performance in the Euro Final that France won regardless.
     
    Shen-O repped this.
  6. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #56 leadleader, Dec 21, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
    Problem is that results clearly show that France was a clearly superior team to Portugal. Not only was it evident results-wise, but also if you listed player-by-player: France was better in virtually every position on the field, if not literally in every position of the field. Great performance by Zidane, but the game was very much rigged in Zidane's favor if you are objective enough to acknowledge the obvious differences in class. In boxing terms, Figo was a 140 pound boxer fighting against a 170 pound boxer i.e. Zidane. At club level, such an artificial difference would not tend to exist anywhere near as much between players like Figo vs. Zidane. This is a big part of the reason why I'm not much of a big fan of NT competitions - the heavyweights will almost certainly win the trophy or at least reach the final.

    Spain 2000 - which was clearly also better than Portugal - did a much better job vs. Zidane, who didn't dominated in the slightest from open-play, but who still scored a crucial FK goal. I would argue that a majority of the objective or neutral viewers who watched that game, must feel that had Raul scored his PK goal near the end of the game - Spain probably would've stolen the win either in extra-time or via the PK shootouts. In my opinion, Zidane vs. Spain is a much more realistic representation of how Zidane played against top tier opponents - it just wasn't dominant at all. Same as his performance vs. Brazil 1998: not dominant at all from open-play, but he did scored 2 magnificent header goals (not from open-play, but who cares as long as he scores, right). He could deliver performances like vs. Portugal 2000 and/or vs. Brazil 2006 - but both of those times, he was playing against a clearly inferior opponent, or against a clearly disorganized and bloated Brazil 2006. Look at what happened to Zidane when he played vs. Italy 2000, or Spain 2000, in the same Euro tournament - he was not dominant at all from open-play, and in fact, he was abysmal vs. Italy, and in a Final to boot. Great player, but he is clearly overrated in my opinion - far too much has been made of his performances vs. significantly inferior teams and/or significantly dysfunctional Brazil 2006, and far too little has been made of his many many disappointing "big game" no-shows.
     
  7. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Funny that you don't apply the same criteria when judging players like Romario and Ronaldinho

    Leadleaders logic:
    A.)Zidane's euro 2000 was vastly overrated because he did not perform well enough in the EC final
    B.)CR7 didn't carry real Madrid to 2 CL titles in 3 seasons because he didn't play well enough in both finals

    Double standards
    A.)Romario carried Brazil to the 1994 world cup despite him doing fu*k all in the WC final against Italy
    B.)Ronaldinho's 2005/06 champions league campaign was legendary despite the fact that he was average at best in the champions league final against arsenal

    your bias against real Madrid/european legends is clearly evident
    you apply double standards to players who don't play for clubs you support and completely exempt from criticism those who are have some sort of affiliation with either Barcelona FC or SA.

    This has been a ongoing thing since forever and that's exactly why anything you say about real Madrid players is always taken with a pinch of salt.
     
    artielange84 repped this.
  8. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    I remember this tournament like it was yesterday and France was not as superior as you are making them out to be. They were the best team but Portugal played arguably their best football historically at Euro 2000 and beat England, Romania, Germamy and Turkey so I'm not sure what "results" you're referencing.

    Additionally, Portugal had plenty of players that could tear up any defense namely Figo, Rui Costa, Sergio Conceicao, with the likes of Nuno Gomes having the best string of games in his career. And the perception of them was not what you make it to be either.

    http://www.espnfc.com/euro2000/news/20000628porfralemerre.html
     
  9. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    You'd expect such an inferior team to Spain and France in 2000 to also not have articles written about them called "Talent rich Portugal at last meet expectations". Golden Generation. Not some scrub team you believe they were, clearly not having actually watched the tournament.

    http://www.espnfc.com/euro2000/news/20000626porexpect.html
     
  10. DazerII

    DazerII Member

    May 27, 2011
    Don't you think maybe there was or there is a conspiracy by FIFA, UEFA, or politics that tried to promote that team as a golden generation while they were actually just poor or overated?
     
  11. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    Yes, definitely. It was the fascists who did it. And they would've gotten away with it too if it wasn't for @leadleader and his trusty companion, Scooby Doo.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #62 leadleader, Dec 22, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
    France also had a golden generation - and guess what?? France's golden generation was MILES BETTER!! It's just a self-evident fact to anybody without a chip on their shoulder.

    Portugal was not a scrub team at all - Figo and Rui Costa were very talented players, but honestly, besides Figo's goal vs. England 200, how many times was Figo dominant or relatively perceived as "great" vs. a top tier national team? I've always believed it had a lot to do with the fact that Portugal's golden generation, whilst respectable, was not on the same tier as France's or Italy's golden generations. I also think that Spain's team was in the same tier as Portugal, though I rate Spain a bit higher, with all due respect.

    And furthermore, I think that Spain's strengths and set of players, were more difficult for a player like Zidane - compared to Portugal. This probably is a more accurate description for how I would compare Portugal vs. Spain, whom I regard more or less as of equal quality for that era.

    As I mentioned before - I'm not a big fan of a tournament where nationality makes or breaks your chances. And I'm not sorry that my fairly reasonable sentiments have such an effect on you.
     
  13. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    Now that you researched it you do. Because previously you stated that Spain was "clearly" better. Now just "a bit". You also stated that you believed that much in part because Mendieta was "widely" considered the best midfielder in Europe in 2000. Anyone that actually watched the game that year knows that is false, laughably so too. Guess Wikipedia only goes so much in depth huh.
     
  14. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #64 leadleader, Dec 22, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
    True. I conflated different things - in large part as a result of the computer that I'm currently using i.e. basically I'm forced into writing a lot faster than I would otherwise want. The thing about Spain, I rate them basically at more or less the same level as that Portugal generation - but I believe that Spain was a more difficult team for Zidane himself, and therefore by extension a more difficult team for France. This is more of a "styles make fights" type of argument 9instead of an argument about Spain being objectively or overall superior to Portugal), and thinking about that, but without actually explaining it - I used the word "clearly." Because I think Spain clearly is a more difficult team for France, but I failed to explain that beforehand so I can see where you're coming from.

    In any case: I offer my sincere apologies if you or anybody else got the impression that I was trying to insult or specifically discredit Portugal. As mentioned before, I think the top teams were Brazil, France, and Italy - any team not mentioned was imo clearly inferior to those 3.
     
  15. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    About Mendieta - he won the best midfielder of the Champions League, if I recall correctly, in season 1999-00 and again in season 2000-01. Am I wrong about that?

    It's not really about Wikipedia, as much as it is about Gaizka Mendieta leading Valencia into 2 consecutive UEFA Champions league Finals: 2000 and 2001. It would seem that he would be very highly rated at Euro 2000, which took place shortly after the 2000 UCL Final. Maybe I'm wrong, but it would seem logical that he'd be one of the "it" players going into that tournament.
     
  16. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    You are, he didn't even make the Team of the Tournament.
     
  17. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    He did win UEFA Club Football Awards: Best Midfielder twice in 2000 and 2001 though.
     
  18. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    That quote was in reference to Euro 2000.

    Regardless, the statement being evaluated is not whether Mendieta was one of the best midfielders in Europe in 2000. Nor is it whether some considered him to be the best, the statement disputed is that he was "widely" considered the best, which is false any way you cut it. He was not considered better than Figo or Zidane in 2000 and this is a fact.
     
  19. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Team of the Tournament AFTER or BEFORE the tournament? I'm confused by your lack of detail. I know he didn't make an impression on the tournament, but I assume that going into the tournament he was at the very least one of the highly midfielders of the competition.
     
  20. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    No, you're confused by your lack of awareness on what actually happened. What does it matter if it was before or after the tournament if, according to you, he was considered the best European midfielder in all of 2000?
     
  21. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #71 leadleader, Dec 22, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
    If you understood the highly implicit context in which "widely" was used, then you would understand that I didn't literally mean that Mendieta was rated above Zidane at the time (which would be a ludicrous assertion to make) - but rather my point was that he was widely rated as the best midfielder at the Champions league i.e. Europe in other words. It was a form of hyperbole: and yes, if you fail to recognize the obvious use of hyperbole the statement does in fact become false.

    You know that I think Zidane was overrated. And you also know that I think Mendieta never had a chance of being rated above Zidane. Absolutely: Mendieta was obviously not considered better than Zidane or Figo, and I never even implied such a thing. I know you hate me, but honestly, it's painfully obvious what my statement was given the comprehensively obvious context that framed it.
     
  22. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #72 leadleader, Dec 22, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
    You're putting words in my mouth again.

    I know that Mendieta didn't have a good Euro, and therefore shouldn't be in the team of the tournament. I also know that coming into the tournament, the best midfielder of the Champions League who also happens to play for a talented Spain team - will get some attention coming into the tournament. Quite similar to how Luis Figo got attention coming into the 2002 World Cup, only to do absolutely nothing in that World Cup, therefore not being included in the team of the tournament.

    It seems as though the "lack of awareness" rests in your inability to understand English, which would at least explain how you repeatedly don't perceive obviously implicit statements & contexts. Please stop blaming me for your own incompetence.
     
  23. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    View attachment 93594

    I hate it when people do this. It doesn't make me like the player (in this case, Zidane) any higher, because it is not an intellectual argument. Instead, I find these statements extremely disrespectful. Sir Alex was basically calling Zidane managers and teammates useless.

    There are so many proper ways to praise a player, why do they have to make these kind of statements. Do they think they sound smart or something, when they do?
     
    leadleader repped this.
  24. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Apparently Thuram, Blanc, Deschamps, Vieira, Lizarazu, Desailly, Henry, Pires, Trezeguet, etc., are just your average national team. And apparently, saying that Portugal was clearly demonstrably inferior to that French team, is the same as insulting the Portugal team. Meh.
     
  25. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Zidane and Figo are more commonly defined as playmakers (or Figo as a winger-playmaker), not as traditional midfielders. Mendieta was a traditional midfielder. Zidane and Figo were 'flair' players who were not traditional midfielders - in fact, a lot of Barcelona fans to this day, still define Figo as a playmaker who played wide.

    When I defined Mendieta as "the best midfielder in Europe" - I was not thinking about playmaker-types like Zidane and/or Figo, but rather about traditional European midfielders like Deco or Mendieta or Seedorf, etc. I was not thinking about players like Zidane, Figo, Kaka, etc.

    Furthermore, the Champions League is the European top club competition. Saying that Mendieta was "the best midfielder in Europe" is accurate enough a description to satisfy the criteria. It was not a statement to be taken literally, but rather with the well known context in mind: that being the fact that Gaizka Mendita was considered the best Champions League midfielder at 2 consecutive Champions Leagues. That really is all there is to it. If you misunderstood what was obviously implicitly stated - guess what? You're not very good at reading in this language, and you've also simultaneously shown your own ignorance about known 'footballing terms' e.g. such as when a person speaks about "midfielders" - that person probably isn't speaking about a playmaker like Zidane, but probably about an actual traditional midfielder.

    The statement that "Mendieta was the best European midfielder" does not inherently includes playmakers like Zidane and/or Figo at all, but is far more indicative of midfielders like Deco, Seedorf, or Mendieta, whom are more traditional midfielders. Please stop grasping at straws and accept the fact that you are just attacking me for the sake of attacking me.
     

Share This Page