Does Retirement overhypes?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by poetgooner, Dec 2, 2016.

  1. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I think his point is people consider MAradona top 2/3 without actually allowing for debate.
     
  2. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    What would Maradona's legacy currently be if the Hand of God was spotted by the ref and England ended up winning?
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I had a look in the British archives and back in 1990 he was indeed rated up there with Pelé by The Times and Daily Telegraph, but so were Eusebio and even Gullit actually.

    "Zidane is overrated" has become a bit of a cliche, even implicitly or explicitly expressed by Rio Ferdinand on Champions League evenings. The idea that "Zidane did not dominate club football, but Maradona did" is arguable. His European record (goals, assists + actual performances) is not better than what Platini did for St Etienne or Cruijff for Barcelona in a comparable era and comparable structural circumstances. Individually he was the most dominant in 1986-87 I'd say, in the sense that you can take it serious.
     
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  4. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    Maradona dominating club football? That's a new argument to me. His performances in the European Cup specifically are certainly nothing to write home about IIRC.

    In 1986-1987, Napoli couldn't even get past the first round of the UEFA Cup, with Maradona missing the last penalty in the shootout. How often would something like this have been raised if it were CR7?
     
  5. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    If CR7 was playing for Napoli I think it would be forgiven after a few months if he won the scudetto.
     
  6. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    CR7 played for much better teams than Maradona. Basically, Manchester United kept winning their league (at the time the best league in the world) without CR7, they even played another UCL Final without CR7. On the other hand, what did Napoli did without Maradona shortly after 1990-91? I agree that Maradona is overrated, but the belief that CR7 is correctly rated in comparison is a conclusion that doesn't add up at all in my opinion. In my opinion: CR7 is just as overrated as Maradona, except that CR7 is obviously less talented than Maradona. And indeed, Messi is as of now underrated as a result of the CR7 grand delusion.

    Just some obvious differences between Maradona vs. CR7,

    Portugal wins Euro Final without CR7 / Maradona is involved in all 3 goals that Argentina scored in the WC Final.

    Maradona delivers the best all time performance in a World Cup / CR7 cannot even be the best player at an Euro without great performers

    Atletico Madrid wins the league in 2013-14, but Real Madrid has never won it with CR7, and in fact, Real Madrid's biggest chance of winning the league is this season 2016-17, which is by far CR7's least impressive Liga season so far / Napoli in their entire history, only won the 2 leagues that Maradona and Co. won.
     
  7. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    I don't disagree that this would be the case but the logic is pretty faulty, IMO. By this token, a player could play for a "smaller" club, and have any achievement magnified, and any failure minimized, because they play for a smaller club.
    Interestingly, this can largely be the opposite for those that play for a bigger team. CR7's Real Madrid achievements, for example, minimized because he plays for a bigger club.

    IMO, Maradona should, in turn, receive a more critical eye for not having challenged himself at the utmost of club competition. This of course also needs to account for the bigger gap in quality between teams these days relative to historical standards (at least IMO), but it is very curious that Maradona, a player considered by many as the GOAT, and that played his prime in Europe, did not make any impact whatsoever in the continent's main competition. Can anyone imagine this happening today?
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    No but he won the double in 1986-87 (although Serie A became really dominant only a few years later), which comes the closest to dominating club football.

    Other options are his years in the Argentinean league but if you look closely at e.g. the topscorer charts of 1979 you see exclusively players who didn't make it in the first division of France or even second divisions of European leagues, and didn't do well in UEFA club competitions (compare this to the so-called 2nd tier leagues in Europe, there the success rate of players is higher I'd say). The 2nd option is 1989-90 but I think he was individually less of a force - as proven in the Copa America, 1989-90 UEFA Cup and World Cup - and Napoli had grown in quality (plus a very controversial ending of the league with bizarre sending offs @ opponents). In my opinion 1986-87 is really the best bet, not that many sides (of leagues that won the EC in the 1980s) accomplished a double and in this campaign he was better as in the 1989-90 campaign. Only points of critique are: 1) in the cup they only met Serie B/C sides plus relegation side, 2) other teams had a down year, with stars as Scirea, Platini, Rummenigge, Boniek, Junior andsoforth some way off their prime and prime age, 3) also here a crucial handball goal (against Sampdoria).

    Ockham's Razor is 'overrated' but in this case country of origin effect + tribalism might really be the best explanation.
     
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  9. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    It's no wonder you criticize CR7 constantly, quite misinformed you are.

    Not only has Real Madrid won the league with CR7, they did it with CR7 scoring the winning goal at the Camp Nou to essentially seal the title late in the season.

    http://www.goal.com/en-us/match/barcelona-vs-real-madrid/1140980/report
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–12_La_Liga
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Napoli imploded financially in 1992, coinciding with 'Tangentopoli'. In 1991-92 Napoli finished 4th with 55 goals scored (similar to their best years) and with #10 Zola scoring 12 goals (with 0 penalties). Their problem was the defense and financial issues.

    Anyway, just wanted to highlights the financial implosion + police raids. Best player of 1980 - 1990 without much doubts, but the idea of the most extreme overdependence ever has actually very little (statistical) substance.
     
  11. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    These are important critiques, however. How many cup winners have been able to play such low-level competition on their way to victory? I'd say not many, if any, and so Maradona benefited from quite the anomaly that was likely, at least partly, due to your second point of other teams having a "down year".

    Assuming 1986-1987 was a year no different than any other, it seems that Napoli might not have accomplished as much. The achievements are still reflective of quality of course but should be considered relative to the fortunate circumstances that allowed it. I say this largely because these are very consistent critiques leveled against current players.
     
  12. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Finances aside, in that era it was almost typical if not fully typical, that teams like Napoli would basically disappear after a good 3-6 years. Look at what happened with Parma: it was a relatively competitive club for a number of years, and then disappeared - it currently plays in Serie D.

    My point was, of course, that CR7 simply played for vastly superior clubs: CR7 was a large non-factor in all the Semi Finals and Finals that Real Madrid played when Real Madrid won the 2 Champions Leagues of 2013-14 and 2015-16; CR7 did not played the Copa del Rey Final 2014, which Real Madrid also won; CR7 did not played the Euro Final, which Portugal won; CR7 has never won a Liga; etc. Maradona's club accomplishments are simply just as remarkable or extremely close to what CR7 achieved, when you account for the obvious differences.
     
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  13. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    And he spouts the same misinformation again. Can't let pesky facts get in the way.
     
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  14. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    The competition changed quite a lot too. If only champions qualified for the CL today, CR7 would've only even played in the CL once in the past 8 seasons. As such it wouldn't have been fair to judge players' careers heavily based on a competition that only a select few could be part of. The World Cup was the one and only competition back then where most of the best players in the world were involved in.
     
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  15. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #40 leadleader, Dec 20, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
    They also did it with Messi winning the Pichichi, with David Villa missing more than the entire half-portion of a season, with Barcelona playing without an elite striker for longer than an entire half-portion of the season, etc. But yes: CR7 did win the league 2011-12, and then Diego Costa also won the league 2013-14. In any case: my specific statement was proven incorrect - CR7 did win La Liga, and Diego Costa one year later also won La Liga. My sloppy mistake, in the end, proves or refutes close to nothing about my criticism. But yes, at times I genuinely do tend to forget that CR7 got lucky in a season where Barcelona's squad looked thin thanks to David Villa's season-ending injury (after which he never fully recovered, mind you).

    http://www.worldfootball.net/schedule/esp-primera-division-2011-2012-spieltag/16/

    Before David Villa's injury, Real Madrid was winning the league by 3 points of difference: 40 points for Real Madrid vs. 37 points for Barcelona. After David Villa's injury: 100 points for Real Madrid vs. 91 points for Barcelona... Do you honestly think that CR7 2012-13 or 2010-11 or 2009-10 does not win La Liga under such favorable circumstances? For reference, Atletico Madrid also won La Liga 2013-14, in large part due to a lucky break i.e. Messi's injury, which forced him to miss some portions of the Liga season - curious how the great CR7 2013-14 was not enough to capitalize on such a lucky break. And do you honestly think that CR7 2011-12 at any point actually 'carried' his team to the title? Do you really want to act as though CR7 2011-12 carried Madrid to the title, when Real Madrid did in fact win the Copa del Rey Final 2014 vs. Barcelona, without CR7? When Real Madrid also doesn't actually need CR7 in order to win Semi Finals and Finals at UCL level?

    The Liga 2011-12 really doesn't change anything for CR7. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever, that you seem to believe that me thinking that CR7 has won no Ligas (which you proved as incorrect), must be the reason for most of criticism? It makes no sense at all, which becomes particularly obvious when you appreciate the fact that a vast majority of my criticism has focused on CR7's lack of form in the 14 Semi Finals and Finals that Real Madrid has played over the past 6 seasons. Him winning La Liga in an unlucky year for Barcelona, doesn't really come even close to 'undoing' anything substantial about my criticism.
     
  16. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    This is an important point but it'd be false to assume that the current competitive landscape would be unchanged. Essentially, Real Madrid would have fallen considerably by the wayside relative to Barcelona had they not made the competition consistently. As a result, the odds of CR7 plying his trade for a team that is without CL competition for so many years would be very low. Alternatively, as Barcelona's dominance during that time is due much in part to preceding seasons where they were able to build their reputation/finances via CL entry, without winning the league, it is very unlikely in an alternate universe that they would have dominated in the manner they did during the time period you mentioned.
     
  17. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    #42 benficafan3, Dec 20, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
    And yet you've brought it up two separate times in your arguments on this page alone? Seems pretty odd to continuously state something as part of your argument if you believe it doesn't add anything. Further misinformation present in your posts when you state that he had "no impact whatsoever" on semis/final CLs that Real Madrid won. Since when is scoring 2 goals against Bayern at the Allianz in a 2nd leg semi-final considered "no impact whatsoever"?

    You then continue to conflate finals with entire competitions, essentially attempting to state that because CR7 did not impact finals that he had no hand in the competitions being won. This is beyond disingenuous.
     
  18. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    So you think that CR7 was more important to Manchester United's titles and/or Real Madrid's titles, than Maradona was to Napoli's?

    My point is, that accounting for the obvious differences in both era and teams - becomes extremely negligible, whatever advantage CR7 might have, if any, when you then compare it to the truly massive difference between CR7's national team form vs. Maradona's national team form.

    Oh and, I already addressed the "pesky fact" that you mentioned: it was easy, inconsequential, and typical of you to act as though such a largely peripheral statement (mistake) would or could undo a majority of my criticism - which of course is in fact largely unrelated if not almost entirely unrelated to Liga performances.
     
  19. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    Without CR7, Real Madrid and Man U do not win those titles.

    Without Maradona, Napoli does not win those titles.

    So just as important.
     
  20. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Compared to Maradona? Yes. Compared to Messi? No. The vast majority of the time that I do discuss and criticize CR7, I never mention Maradona, and I often mention Messi, and I sure as hell do not focus my arguments on CR7's Liga performances. It's demonstrably silly, how you want to act as though my main arguments vs. CR7 should be undone by a criteria that, outside of the highly specific subject of Maradona vs. CR7, I rarely or simply never use for or against CR7.

    When comparison CR7 vs. Maradona, I do think that league performances are relevant, because Napoli does not win the Serie A without Maradona, whereas with Real Madrid is much less clear. Again, Atletico Madrid won the 2013-14 Liga without CR7... And Real Madrid won the 2011-12 Liga with CR7, and in large part benefitting from Barcelona's thin squad after David Villa's season-ending injury. That's hardly conclusive proof of anything, as it pertains to CR7 vs. Maradona.

    As I already explained to you: with David Villa, Real Madrid had a tiny 3 points advantage; without Villa, Real Madrid finished the league with a substantial 9 points advantage. This becomes all the more relevant, when you consider the fact that David Villa's season ended, just before the winter break i.e. Barcelona played without Villa for an entire half-portion of the season, at which point they were just 3 points behind Real Madrid. They lacked an elite finisher, after Villa's season was over. Do you really think that CR7's contribution to the 2011-12 Liga, is directly comparable to Maradona's contribution to Napoli's Serie A titles?


    It adds something to this specific argument of CR7 vs. Maradona, which is a silly argument by the way. It is, however, not a factor in my arguments of CR7 vs. Messi. I rarely or simply never focus on the lack of Liga titles by CR7, when in the context of CR7 vs. Messi - since I happen to think that Messi benefited greatly from playing for a great Barcelona team: in fact, I've repeatedly and explicitly expressed that sentiment year after year. Overall: I think it's silly that you are now trying to extrapolate my focus in this specific Maradona vs. CR7 argument, so as to try to frame it as a major factor that I always use against CR7 regardless of the context - which is simply dishonest of you.

    He had no real impact whatsoever: CR7 vs. Bayern Munich 2013-14 was redundant; CR7 vs. Atletico Madrid 2013-14 was redundant; CR7 vs. Manchester City 2015-16 was redundant; CR7 vs. Atletico Madrid 2015-16 was also redundant in-game, but he did scored the winning PK after all of his teammates had scored their respective PKs.

    Of course: you are free to disagree with me, but to define my entire argument as "just a bunch of misinformation" is just sad, pathetic, and simply silly. The only piece of unintended misinformation has been his lack of a Liga title, which was merely a lazy honest mistake, which I rarely or never use in the Messi vs. CR7 arguments (since I also think that Messi benefitted a great deal from sheer team superiority in this regard), and which I readily admitted to since it was a lazy-easily-refutable embarrassing mistake and doesn't really changes anything in this specific CR7 vs. Maradona joke of an argument. What you are doing, is simply acting as though you can just plainly discredit my whole argument, simply because you found an easily-refutable glaring mistake. You're free to do that, but that's just unconvincing and cheap, as are literally all of your pro-CR7 arguments.

    The Champions League in its modern format is about the Quarter Finals, the Semi Finals, and the Finals. It isn't a league, and given the fact that Real Madrid routinely benefits from easy roads to the Semi Finals (last season it was an easy road to the Final) - it does become about the Semi Finals and the Final. Real Madrid does not need CR7 in order to win draws vs. Wolfsburg or vs. Roma. Real Madrid would, if anything, appear to need CR7 in order to beat the top tier clubs - but even there, Real Madrid doesn't actually need CR7, as proven by 2013-14 and 2015-16. When was the last time that Messi won the Champions League without doing anything in the Semi Finals AND the Final??
     
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  21. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I disagree: Manchester United continued to win titles without CR7; Manchester United without CR7, also very likely could have beaten a team like Chelsea 2007-08. Quite simply: Chelsea 2007-08 was not the giant that Barcelona 2010-11 was. CR7 was not the single reason why Manchester United won the Champions League 2007-08, and in fact, CR7 himself failed to score his PK in the Penalty Shootout in the Final - at which point it very much looked like Chelsea was going to win.

    As for the league: Manchester United continued winning the league without CR7 - this is a known fact. Napoli without Maradona, has virtually zero chances of winning the Serie A.

    Completely disagree. I think that Maradona is overrated a good deal - it's just that CR7 is, if anything, more overrated, on top of being less talented. Agree to disagree.
     
  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    @leadleader
    This thread is well on its way to getting locked no thanks to your relentless campaign against Cristiano Ronaldo.

    You have been repeatedly called out for spreading false information yet you are still persisting with your lost cause.
    I have already debunked in fact several times over your claim that CR7 was a non factor/redundant against bayern Munich 13/14.

    Real Madrid beat bayern Munich 5-0 on aggregate
    Cristiano Ronaldo was directly involved in 3 of the 5 goals real Madrid scored
    He pre assisted the only goal scored by benzema with a beautifully weighted through ball in a 1-0 home victory
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...al-Madrid-v-Bayern-Munich-player-ratings.html

    then he finished the job by scoring 2 goals in the Allianz arena in a 4-0 away thrashing.

    He was voted best player on the pitch alongside luca modric with a 4 out of 5 star player rating by goal.com
    http://m.goal.com/s/en-gb/match/bayern-münchen-vs-real-madrid/1669065/ratings

    he was also voted MOTM by the guardian with a very high rating of 9/10
    https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...h-real-madrid-champions-league-player-ratings


    Voted MOTM by the independent also with a 9/10 match rating
    http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ificent-madrid-cristiano-9303766.html#gallery


    I can understand perfectly that c.Ronaldo being the best player on the pitch in the 13/14 CL sf doesn't exactly fit in with your narrative about him being "completely ineffective" but that doesn't make it less true.
    Just admit you got it horribly wrong and it will save you from being humiliated any further
     
  23. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Some Records by Cristiano Ronaldo during the 2011/12 season

    1.)The first player in history to score against every team in a single la liga season

    2.)scored league hattricks against seville away,atletico Madrid away and the title winning goal in the camp nou

    3.) Scored in the most games ever in a single league season during 2011/12
    Scored in 27 out of 38 matches=71% of all games

    4.)became the first player to score in 6 consecutive classicos in the 2012 calendar
    including the goal that won the 2011/12 la liga title
    The goals that won the 2012/13 supercopa de españa
    He also scored 2 goals in a 4-3 copa del rey quarter final loss to Barcelona in 2011/12
    How anyone could even attempt to denigrate cristiano's contributions to the 11/12 title..its just complete insanity
    http://messivsronaldo.net/records/

    Note:
    Having said this i don't think we should be too shocked,it was only last week that leadleader insisted that Lionel Messi won the 2011/12 la liga title:laugh::laugh:(even funnier coming from an alleged Barcelona fan)
    http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads...-super-overrated.2037493/page-7#post-34947174
    41ce4f7c2e09ae78560795cc29f49ba9.jpg
     
  24. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #49 leadleader, Dec 21, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
    Suck on this Carlito:

    http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/cristiano-ronaldo-2011-12-overrated.2037694/

    Messi 2011-12 Liga:

    37 games / 38 OP goals / 50 goals out of 110 goals / 18 assists / 10 PKs & 1 failed PK / 2 FKs / 13 goals & 8 assists after 2-goal lead
    Cristiano Ronaldo 2011-12 Liga:
    38 games / 32 OP goals or less / 46 goals out of 121 goals / 12 assists & 1 self-assist / 12 PKs & 1 failed PK / 2 FKs / 13 goals & 5 assists after 2-goal lead
    Romario 1993-94 Liga:
    33 games / 29 OP goals / 30 goals out of 80 goals / 14 assists / 0 PKs & 1 failed PK / 1 FK / 8 goals & 2 assists after 2-goal lead

    :laugh::laugh::laugh:

    Messi 2011-12 Liga:

    15 games (before Villa injury) / 17 goals out of 50 goals / 7 assists & 0 self-assist / 1 PK & 1 failed PK / 0 FKs / 9 goals & 3 assists after 2-goal lead
    22 games (after Villa injury) / 33 goals out of 61 goals / 11 assists / 9 PKs & 0 failed PK / 2 FKs / 4 goals & 5 assists after 2-goal lead
    Cristiano Ronaldo 2011-12 Liga:
    16 games / 17 goals out of 49 goals / 6 assists & 1 self-assist / 6 PKs / 0 FKs / 6 goals & 2 assists after 2-goal lead
    22 games / 23 goals out of 71 goals / 6 assists / 6 PKs & 1 failed PK / 2 FKs / 7 goals & 3 assists after 2-goal lead
    Messi Liga 2011-12 vs. Top 5 teams:
    3 games / 3 goals out of 10 goals / 3 assists / 0 PKs & 0 failed PK / 0 FKs / 0 goals & 0 assists after 2-goal lead
    5 games / 11 goals out of 16 goals / 0 assists / 2 PKs & 0 failed PK / 1 FK / 4 goals & 0 assists after 2-goal lead
    Cristiano Ronaldo Liga 2011-12 vs. Top 5 teams:
    4 games / 6 goals out of 12 goals / 0 assists / 2 PKs / 0 FKs / 0 goals & 0 assists after 2-goal lead
    4 games / 4 goals out of 7 goals / 2 assists / 1 PK / 1 FK / 0 goals & 1 assist after 2-goal lead

    :laugh::laugh::laugh:

    I used that mistake that ONE time out of like a 100 posts?? So that ONE time makes that ONE admittedly embarrassing mistake an absolutely crucial part of the main arguments that I've voiced in over hundreds of posts by now? That's silly. That's weak. Just like over 95% of your laughable Cristianonomics that make sense only to you and a militant group of Portugues posters LMAO.
     
  25. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/sports_talk/1066176.stm
    I found an interesting article re zizou's case for the 2000 ballon dor
    The article written by the BBC seems to suggest there were 4 main candidates for the award namely
    Zidane
    Luis Figo
    David Beckham
    And Rivaldo
    The article offers a different perspective from many different football fans at the time from all over the globe

    It is interesting to see that quite a few fans thought he was overrated even in one of his absolute prime years
    I noticed one fan even saying was a great player but he could never dominate a game like peak Rivaldo or even Luis Figo (pre 2001)
     

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