Agree Xavi should be higher but don't agree Pirlo should be lower. They should be fairly close. Pirlo is undoubtedly one of the best playmakers of all time. Also, I think Totti is an attacking player that plays more of a "false 9 role," who plays a lot of killer passes and score a lot of goals. However, I don't think he is a "natural" playmaker, he does participate in the link up play but it is not his main role. Unlike Pirlo and Xavi whose main roles were to play the connecting passes to link up the team and controlling the tempo.
I found something that is a good fit for this thread and a nice addition. I don't say it establishes who is a 'playmaker' but it helps at least. To put it the other way: if a player has four times as many goals than assists then you can seriously question whether he's playmaker (despite possessing the capabilities perhaps). 6 - Players with 50+ PL strikes, but more assists than goals: Giggs, Bergkamp, Beckham, Duff, Barry, Murphy. Unselfish. #OptaJoeQuiz pic.twitter.com/PmQRCqKq02— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) November 8, 2016 Maybe that bar of 50 goals is too high to actually catch some of the true playmakers, or modern day playmakers. 802478141994364928 is not a valid tweet id It is still an interesting detail because there have been 93 players with 50 Premier League goals or more (Hazard, Young and Milner can join this group over the next one or one-and-a-half year). Only six of those 93 have more assists than goals. Of course, taking penalties can distort this. Some of those six will invariably drop out with more penalties. Giggs (2), Bergkamp (5), Beckham (2), Duff (0), Barry (18) and Murphy (18). Taking many dead balls will help too for inclusion, but other than Beckham (maybe Giggs) I don't think those players have many dead ball assists. Some of them have also a significant number of pre-assists, as shown on that 'premiersoccerstats' website. Conversely, let's take a look at the top 10 penalty takers (and deduct the penalties): http://www.bdfutbol.com/en/c/rankingGPenEng1.html Shearer - 260 goals (55 penalties), 41 assists Lampard - 177 goals (43 penalties), 102 assists Gerrard - 120 goals (32 penalties), 92 assists (misses out narrowly!) Le Tissier - 101 goals (25 penalties), 64 assists Unsworth - 38 goals (23 penalties), 12 assists Henry - 175 goals (23 penalties), 74 assists Sheringham - 146 goals (20 penalties), 76 assists Rooney - 194 goals (19 penalties), 100 assists Murphy - 50 goals (18 penalties), 55 assists Barry - 52 goals (18 penalties), 62 assists Beardsley - 58 goals (18 penalties), 33 assists (comes close as well, like Gerrard) Still seems to be uncommon somehow. Maybe you have an idea of players who might be close-ish? Di Canio - 68 goals (15 penalties), 49 assists Cantona - 70 goals (14 penalties), 56 assists (just misses out!) Zola - 59 goals (1 penalty), 22 assists
I guess you'd be looking at open play goals vs open play assists (and set-piece goals minus penalties vs set-piece assists)? Maybe Fabregas, McManaman, Juninho and McAllister could be worth a check. In their own ways all playmakers I suppose - maybe Fabregas fitting the mould the most overall (also looking beyond assists) but hard to say.
McAllister - 49 goals (17 penalties), 62 assists It is said however that he has 30 dead ball assists. Fabregas - 43 goals (5 penalties), 96 assists Interesting is that in three years at FC Barcelona he scored 28 league goals (2 penalties), 31 assists. Don't know how many dead ball assists. At Arsenal a few perhaps. Juninho - 29 goals (0 penalties), 19 assists McManaman - 41 goals (0 penalties), 67 assists (I think, OPTA only records him after 1996) Scholes - 107 goals (1 penalty), 45 assists
Ah, I found it. Most dead ball assists (until 2012): Giggs 39, Le Tissier 39, Anderton 38, McAllister 30, Lampard 29, Beckham 29. Gerrard had 19 until 2012, Cantona 4, Bergkamp 6, McManaman 7, Scholes 1. Might be a few off, but it provides a rough idea indeed re: open play 'playmaking'.
After 2012 Gerrard added 14 more dead ball assists in the league so that takes it to ~33 roughly (of 92 OPTA assists). Yes, this is a separate type of 'playmaking'.
If there is another Premier League player springing to mind feel free to give a shout. One can argue that Pires and certainly David Silva had/have also playmaking capabilities. - Robert Pires is at 62 goals (4 penalties) and 41 OPTA assists. - David Silva is at 35 goals (0 penalties) and 59 assists. He has 10 or 11 dead ball assists (directly from set pieces). If he's lucky and continues to play then he can join the 50+ goals group too with more assists than goals (McAllister just missed this on one goal as we've seen). With regards to DB10 his playmaking role, there's some excellent stuff in The Independent archives from the second half of 1995 - although this came even more to the fore in the second half of his Arsenal career: 5 August 1995 headline: "Bergkamp finds role as goal provider" 17 September 1995: "Nevertheless, Wright prospered and Dennis Bergkamp's attention to every detail except putting the ball in the net contained that first-touch precision that is an example to all around him." 26 October 1995: "Football: Bergkamp can win title, says Wilson Dennis Bergkamp's demonstration of his abundant talent left the Barnsley manager, Danny Wilson, predicting he would bring the title to Highbury, but the pounds 7.5m striker is willing to wait - for a while. Bergkamp's delicacy of touch and outstanding vision were evident again as he inspired Arsenal to their impressive Coca-Cola Cup victory at Oakwell on Tuesday night." Either way, David Silva is a good inclusion for modern players, and modern day playmakers. His GI rating is also quite solid I see (like some of the above mentioned players, including doubtful cases - for playmaking - as Lampard).
Yes, maybe to attempt to capture a wider approximation of 'playmaking' extending it to pre-pre assists etc could be useful, but each case would be different in terms of what was required/displayed and what changed/opened up as a result of the players input. Maybe that Premier League stats wide assist data could be good except maybe it is not completely accurate/consistent in allocation of those wider assists - if OPTA showed a player with more assists than that site did maybe that would be a flag to suggest that. The other thing I suppose is that two players could be equally good at playmaking and have equal emphasis on attempting to score but one could be better at scoring and take more chances due to finishing and/or dribbling perhaps. Anders Svensson and Mark Draper could be possibilities for more assists than goals, with a reasonable/decent number of assists. More famously Xabi Alonso I'd assume, or perhaps Luca Modric (not sure the final ball was really his speciality so much though).
Regarding the Bergkamp vs ozil comparison in their first 3 seasons it is worth mentioning that in addition to his "opta assists" Bergkamp was also a very prolific pre assister he was heavily involved ,perhaps even the most involved arsenal player in creating goal chances from 1997-2003 after which I'm would say Henry took over as arsenals chief playmaker(and goalscorer of course) (Even if d.bergamps opta assist record is relatively impressive I don't think it is a true reflection of his impact and importance to arsenal during his first 3 seasons there) Note:I was always amazed at how woeful cantona's goal record was even with the many penalties he took. he is a bit like weah in that regard except that he never took pens
Yes this is a valid point (excluding pens and/or free kicks his goals per game is not better than Zola, Beardsley or DB10 who didn't play for steamrolling United) but I think there's a paradox in Cantona's stats at Manchester United. If you watch his goals then you see quite a few tap-ins and headers (as hinted at in the article I posted in the 1995-96 thread) - more like a striker. With set pieces he was an aerial threat, hence no need to take attempts for 'dead ball assists' by himself. He's also the club topscorer in two of the four full seasons he played there (I leave the 1994-95 ban outside the equation), for a fairly dominant club. Yet, the number of shots attempted (off/on target) is nothing extraordinary. The PL/OPTA data is incomplete but we can use Aaron Nielsen his data instead. Per game it was comparable to the other star forwards in the Premiership, with some strikers as Shearer, Wright making twice as many attempts than him (in case of Shearer I'm pretty sure he made double attempts). Also Cantona his assists per game can still withstand comparison in these days of 90+/100+ goals a season teams and the rule changes. It still ranks among the best in EPL history. I don't think however he classifies as a 'playmaking forward' or of that sorts, which is supported by the 'premiersoccerstats' websites which shows semi-contemporaries e.g. Scholes, McManaman and Bergkamp with far, far more pre-assists than Cantona (if you deduct the assists from the 'hockey assists' total - and I think that impression is correct). The ability to think three or more steps ahead. http://www.premiersoccerstats.com/Records.cfm?DOrderby=OPAss&DYearby=All Seasons What you can say is that his career numbers and averages aren't better than the others - and he retired aged 30 while Zola, well, left the league aged 36 (not to mention Sheringham, Beardsley etc.) Very arguably he also played for the strongest club of the lot, at least the most consistently strong and reliable 'platform'. During his ban ManUnited achieved about the same number of wins and results, one of the reasons why his GI rating isn't in the top regions (top 250) or something remarkable. Unlike the aforementioned Scholes or Bergkamp for example. I'm also leaning to think that Zola and Bergkamp (for example) did more in Europe and at least achieved a final in Europe as instrumental players (Zola had 4 goals in 8 games in the 1997-98 CWC season; Bergkamp 3 goals in 6 at the 1999-00 UEFA Cup plus a few good performances at the 1999-00 UCL). Long story short: your point about deducting penalties and perhaps free kicks if that suits (Zola had 12/59 as free kick) is right but paradoxically Cantona hadn't that many goal attempts compared to 'real' strikers (he did have a respectable amount compared to other forwards or midfielders).
Can't find the OPTA data for Draper that quick but Nielsen shows him at 13 goals, 20 assists in 183 games. Svensson is at 10, 12 in 127. Both without penalties. Xabi Alonso - 14 goals (2 penalties), 17 assists in 143 EPL games (OPTA and Nielsen say the same) Modric - 13 goals (1 penalty), 15 assists in 127 EPL games Bit odd that Modric has only this year his first Ballon d'Or inclusion (at the age of 31), esp. compared to Kroos or Di Maria previously.
Ah ok, so I was right to suspect they might have more (just!) but also their low 'output' in general confirms their midfield orchestrating role (and perhaps in at least a couple of cases, the 'normal' standard of player as opposed to 'great' as creative/attacking midfielders - also playing for mid table clubs ofc).
Was a bit surprised to see that such iconic player for an iconic team only received the 'player of the month' once, with some contemporaries and team mates receiving it more (including at an advanced age). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_League_Player_of_the_Month It was established after the 1993-94 season which was probably his strongest season. In 48 games he had 25 goals (only 4 penalties this season) and 13 assists in all competitions. 18 goals (2 penalties), 10 assists in 34 league games. With that season included he most probably would've been voted twice, at least (twice in one year didn't happen until 1997, and rarely happened after, but it's not impossible either). Roy Keane: 39 goals (0 penalties), 35 assists (in 366 games). Also includes his Nottingham Forest season. There are actually articles around that argue (correctly/incorrectly) that he was like a playmaker, and had underrated skills as a playmaking midfielder: http://spielverlagerung.de/2013/12/01/turchen-1-roy-keane/ Tomorrow I'll try to see this video (for myself) as a reminder and refresher
Cantona was a maverick and a cult hero. That's not to say he didn't have bags of ability but his legendary status was half a myth created by the British press and the other half was probably justified What can't be denied is Manchester United were almost permanently in the shadow of Liverpool for the best part of 2 decades. Cantona's signing just happened to coincide with uniteds re emergence as a major player in the premiership and to his credit he scored many big goals(league and cup winning goals) he was also a cool character on and off the pitch(he pretty much kick started the upturned collar fashion) and his interviews were probably as good as his football(very entertaining) The thing is if we compared Cantona's record to let's say somebody like Drogba who was a big game legend then his record doesn't look so amazing Eric's average to poor record in the champions league also deserves to be scrutinised. Perhaps it's not entirely fair to judge a player like Cantona purely on goals as he did contribute in others ways but even then as you have shown his assist and pre assist record weren't exactly mind blowing. (Zola is another one IMO who has been overly romanticised by the English press and of course Chelsea fans but this is a discussion to be had at another time)
A 45 min comp of Maradona's assists spread over nearly 2 decades The comp maker has included footage of at least 150+ of his assists which would make it to my knowledge the most comprehensive comp on YouTube based purely on Maradona's assists and passing. @PuckVanHeel I read a unverified source a while ago saying Maradona had 300+ strict assists in his career Perhaps you could shed a little light on this? (Many of Maradona's games weren't even televised especially his games in Argentina in the late 70s so whose to say he didn't have many more This could also apply to Cruyff and Pele before him)
Yes, I think I know a little bit about this number. I understood from Vegan10 that the 300+ assists (slightly over 300) is including all the friendlies, under-21 matches, under-19 games, military matches etc. Let's call it the "Pelé rules". As you say, some games are not well-covered or controversial including several Coppa Italia games. Per the reports he was significantly more of a provider at Boca Juniors than at Argentinos, and luckily we do have the Boca Juniors assists. If we restrict it to what we know (being a bit generous at times): National team: 91 games, 28 assists European competitions: 25 games, 14 assists Sevilla (all competitions thus incl. Copa del Rey): 29 games, 10 or 11 assists Now only the league: 1981 Boca Juniors: 40 games, 15 to 17 assists 1982-83 Barcelona: 20 games, 10 assists 1983-84 Barcelona: 16 games, 4 assists 1984-85 Napoli: 30 games, 5 assists 1985-86 Napoli: 29 games, 4 assists 1986-87 Napoli: 29 games, 4 assists 1987-88 Napoli: 28 games, 9 assists 1988-89 Napoli: 26 games, 9 assists 1989-90 Napoli: 28 games, 13 assists 1990-91 Napoli: 18 games, 2 assists It was lower in his first three Napoli seasons, most probably because he played with one forward in support (and a quasi-winger) than with two forwards from 1987 onward. He also started to take more set pieces while before 1987 they were taken by e.g. Giordano and Bertoni as well. Now, let's add all of this together. That makes 409 games, 130 assists (126 to 130). In his whole career he played (at most) 692 official games. He had 345 to 354 official goals. At least 88 of them are penalties. The stats buffs of 'fivethirtyeight.com' keep it at 679 games, 346 goals. If you extrapolate the numbers (not taking into account career progression and decline), a realistic assist count is 200 - 215. According to Vegan10 around ~180 assists in all official matches.
Maybe you also like these recent videos (current players trying to replicate classic goals) Yes, if you combine the two together probably not, but his assist record still withstands the teeth of time (while goals scored by the top teams have gone up generally). Of course he retired at the age of 30 for a dominant platform, but Fabregas, Ozil, Silva will also come into their ageing years. And as shown in post #30: he doesn't have many dead ball assists, because he himself was an aerial threat.
On that note, I was looking at Xavi vs Pirlo in this respect and it is surprising how many more Xavi has. Xavi has around 200 career assists (until he left Europe) for club and national team in 900 games. In this respect Pirlo did reasonably well at Juventus (38 in 164), but for AC Milan it was rather pedestrian. His season best was 4 assists in the league, within 10 seasons for AC Milan. This is also true for the Champions League: Pirlo has 10 assists in 108 games and Xavi something like 31 in 151 games. For the national team the pattern appears to be the same (Xavi has 28 in 133 games; Pirlo's is less clear). I agree with others that there isn't much between them, and for my part his peak (around 2006) has become a bit underrated while the seasons after 2012 have become overrated (also in 2011-12 it was not all glory against the truly big teams when he wasn't the quasi libero in midfield, and he had a direct opponent to play against; opponents often left him free precisely because his passes - while flawless in distribution - don't cause that much direct danger). One thing that's often overlooked in the comparisons is that Xavi's passes had more pace (everything else equal). Next to other known factors, this obviously contributes to more pre-assists and direct assists for a central player in midfield. Pirlo is more pleasing to the eye though, appears to have more variety and ingenuity in his play. Either way, I just let you and @carlito86 know what I found re: assists.
Would you have any idea about ozil's total assist record(club and country)? I remember correctly he was the assist king in Europe up until his disappointing 1st season at arsenal In Madrid he had a monstrous 75+assists in only 3 seasons if any playmaker from this generation could challenge xavi's assist record it has to be ozil. zizou and iniesta are WAY behind(around 100 assists less than xavi hernandez with approx 110-120 strict assists each)
The way Ozil plays and how to correctly define his role and style has baffled me for quite a well ever since he was in Bremen. For me, if you look at the current Germany national team, Kroos and Gundogan are perhaps the two current best CMFs that they have who play the biggest part in the build-up play and controlling the tempo. If you compare Ozil to players who are in similar positions, let say David Silva and Iniesta, while Ozil usually shines through his creativity in providing the final assist, Silva and Iniesta plays a more important role in link-up play and controlling the tempo with their superb movement and ball retention. In this case, should it be more appropriate to compare Ozil to someone like Totti rather than Silva and Iniesta(who are "natural playmakers")? He seems a bit like a Classic No.10 to me....
Iniesta certainly but do you have a source for Zidane's? He has 23 for the national team, 34 in the Champions League (in just 80 games, mind), for Bordeaux 36 in all competitions (without doubt imho). Zidane has also 30 Primera Division assists according to OPTA. This already adds up to 123 assists... (155 games, 37 goals, incl. 3 penalties, 30 assists) As for Ozil: in 105 Primera Division games he had 19 goals (0 penalties) and 47 assists. Includes 14 dead ball assists and 11 from a through ball.
I suppose when I started the thread, I did feel the very top candidates might have both the factors of active participation in build-up with influence on the construction of moves from midfield, and the final third vision/creativity/skills/passing accuracy and timing which likely results in plenty of assists, plus pre-assists and as the statisticians would term it 'chances created'. The top 5 I tentatively put forwards in post 2 probably seems reasonable still to me in that respect, but I know many others will have a decent claim and for any particular player it can be that claim is more about the construction/participation or more about the final third effect can't it? Those 5 - Platini, M.Laudrup, Cruyff, Didi, Rivera - don't have full statistical summaries available of course to reflect either category (outside of World Cups anyway, and Didi doesn't have them for that either although does have an assists estimate for NT games on Lucas's thread I remember). Maybe the way I'm thinking the hybrid players (most often AM's or attacking CM's, or roaming false 9's I guess) might have the advantage I suppose. But other players did construct and link play better than Platini in/from midfield, or (probably) provide more assists than Rivera - Xavi and Ozil maybe indeed respectively arguably? As per the link in post 1 itself, I wasn't limiting it to CM's and deep-lying playmakers anyway, but no neither should a high assist count be deemed to trump every other aspect of playmaking I guess.
Given that there's so little of them, which games do show this best for Rivera and Didi? Examples in mind?
He made exactly 74 assists in 3 seasons for real Madrid(all competitions) I think we may have to dig very deep into the archives to find any player who made so many assists in such a short space of time. His goal scoring wasn't too shabby either but when your playing behind CR7,benzema and higuain I don't think you can expect to have that many goalscoring opportunities. I know the traditional pick for this generation's standout playmaker is xavi but Ozil is a player IMO who certainly deserves to be in the mix With regards to Iniesta I'm pretty sure he has over 100 strict career assists In his career best season 2011/12 he made around 20-25 strict assists and surprisingly he wasn't even his teams top assister (Messi scored over 70 goals that season Inc 30 wide assists) I guess seeing how Messi has improved vastly into a formidable playmaker he will also have a legit case for being this era's standout playmaker and goalscorer