NSR Netherlands: Current events (in the world).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth
Writing about Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, the Orientalist scholar W Montgomery Watt wrote: "Of all the world's great men, none has been so much maligned as Muhammad." His quote seems all the more poignant in light of the Islamophobic film Innocence of Muslims, which has sparked riots from Yemen to Libya and which, among other slanders, depicts Muhammad as a paedophile.

This claim is a recurring one among critics of Islam, so its foundation deserves close scrutiny.

Critics allege that Aisha was just six years old when she was betrothed to Muhammad, himself in his 50s, and only nine when the marriage was consummated. They base this on a saying attributed to Aisha herself (Sahih Bukhari volume 5, book 58, number 234), and the debate on this issue is further complicated by the fact that some Muslims believe this to be a historically accurate account. Although most Muslims would not consider marrying off their nine-year-old daughters, those who accept this saying argue that since the Qur'an states that marriage is void unless entered into by consenting adults, Aisha must have entered puberty early.

They point out that, in seventh-century Arabia, adulthood was defined as the onset of puberty. (This much is true, and was also the case in Europe: five centuries after Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, 33-year-old King John of England married 12-year-old Isabella of Angoulême.) Interestingly, of the many criticisms of Muhammad made at the time by his opponents, none focused on Aisha's age at marriage.

According to this perspective, Aisha may have been young, but she was not younger than was the norm at the time. Other Muslims doubt the very idea that Aisha was six at the time of marriage, referring to historians who have questioned the reliability of Aisha's age as given in the saying. In a society without a birth registry and where people did not celebrate birthdays, most people estimated their own age and that of others. Aisha would have been no different. What's more, Aisha had already been engaged to someone else before she married Muhammad, suggesting she had already been mature enough by the standards of her society to consider marriage for a while. It seems difficult to reconcile this with her being six.

In addition, some modern Muslim scholars have more recently cast doubt on the veracity of the saying, or hadith, used to assert Aisha's young age. In Islam, the hadith literature (sayings of the prophet) is considered secondary to the Qur'an. While the Qur'an is considered to be the verbatim word of God, the hadiths were transmitted over time through a rigorous but not infallible methodology. Taking all known accounts and records of Aisha's age at marriage, estimates of her age range from nine to 19.

 

You hit the nail on the head. Christians have moved on from their barbaric, middle-aged practices. A lot of muslims still havent, so we're stuck with these backwards thinking clowns

 

As Feyenoordsoccerfan pointed out, there is a conflict inside the muslim world about Aicha's real age. She was a puber but maybe not as young as 9.

Secondly there's no absolute truth about consent age and menarches, it all depends on environnement. If some girls are ready to deliver a baby at 12, what's wrong with it from a moral point of view ? How can you evalute the mental maturity of a person to be able to consent ? With an IQ test ? lol
I believe 12yo girls has less academical knowledge but were able to cook, take care of domestic tasks, of a baby etc. before while a lot of 20yo girls cannot nowadays. That's what defines the ability to raise a child though, right ? Being able to change diapers > knowing the capital city of Venezuela.

Muhammad did something that was absolutly normal at that time AND that still could be normal nowadays if we had a different society structure. As much as I understand your point about morality supposed to be timeless in religions, I don't think this is the right example to attack muslims and Muhammad. since there will never be an absolute truth about consent age from a moral point of view.

 

@Laurent75

Right? Gotta be able to make fun of these things?

 

For me, yeah, I can laugh about everything. Does it mean we're right to think so though? Should we put a limit somewhere ?

 

You tell me buddy, where would you put the limit more or less of freedom of speech?

 

Freedom of speech is already different from humor. Freedom of speech should be totally unlimited everywhere, if you read that Muhammad did something bad in his past, you should be able to discuss it on a TV channel or in a public space without any problem. I'm for that.

But drawing individuals (holy or not) in sexual or humiliating positions, where's the limit between humor and respect ? They don't only do it to religious holy symbols, they also do it to alive people, celebrities etc., right. Now of course we can laugh about it since you and me aren't directly concerned, but what if this type of humor starts to touch average people ? What if tomorrow in the subway a new type of humor appears, a guy comes in the wagon and starts mocking you and humiliating you in front of others who would laugh and give him some money after ? Would you be ok with it ?

I'm ok with it with my friends, they can mock me on my look, on my family members etc. I don't care. But unknown people ? It touches the limit of respect. And that's the whole thing about those cartoons story. I've heard one guy ( a drawer) saying that he practices this type of cartoon and humour but only with things of his culture, not other ones. And I agreed with it. That's the limit I think. Laugh about everything with your family, friends, your culture but not with other cultures or people who have a totally different lifestyle and culture.

 

Things suddenly turned bad for my dear friend. Yesterday she deteriorated and after searching for the cause they found she had an infection in both her longs and is now in intensive care unit with antibiotics. She is as tough as a steel nail when it comes to pain, but when I was with her today, she wept because of the pain and she indicated a 10 out of 10 pain scale. I got the message that the surgeon took another look because of the pain level indicated and decided to operate again tonight. The lung condition causes pressure on the wounds in her abdomen, as far as I understand it. Things are nerve-racking at the moment.
Because I have difficulty sleeping I thought reading some latest alerts could distract me a bit.
Thought it was time, after reading his attack on L'75 to let DB300 crap hit the fan.

 

About MO in the Quran:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/jesus_most_exalted_q.htm
The Quran Agrees:

Jesus is the most Exalted of all
Sam Shamoun

Muslims, and certain Islamic narrations, claim that Muhammad is the most exalted of all of Allah’s creatures. They believe that Allah has preferred Muhammad to the rest of the prophets and messengers. However, the Quran does not substantiate this assertion since there is someone else who is presented as being more exalted than Muhammad. In fact, this someone else is presented as superior to all other prophets according to the Quran.

For instance, when the Quran mentions that Allah has preferred some apostles above certain others it specifically mentions Jesus and David:

Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If God had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If God had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but God Fulfilleth His plan. S. 2:253 Y. Ali

etc.

 

Rarely do I hope there is indeed a god. But in your case, I truely do and I hope that this is a matter of the night is darkest before dawn. Best of luck buddy, and if you want proof of a miracle, look at todays feyenoord game!

 

I'll try to read a bit more about it when I have the time but clearly these people did not have the objective to kill as many innocent people as possible.

 

Many people in the (western) world are poor and uneducated. Muslims are massively overrepresented when it comes to terrorism though. Why are we not seeing poor, uneducated christians or atheist blowing themselves up if socio-economic status is the main driving factor?

 

What we all knew has been comfirmed today. Isis claimed the attack.

 

Yes it is very likely and very common that 9 year old girls want to have sex with 50 year old men.

 

http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2016/07/21...t-weten-ieren-als-geen-ander-3344557-a1512746
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/f...shape-debate-on-terrorism-in-europe-1.2726154

 

Do you still hold DB300 statement to be undeniable true?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA_(separatist_group)

ISIS makes attacks based on religion, ok, but those young european thugs who make attacks make it for socio-economic reasons first. It appears that most of them claim to be muslims, ok, that might play a role but they are not pushed by any organization. Eventually ISIS recognizes the attacks once they are done cause they will take anything against westerners, but those guys who make the Paris attacks have never had serious contacts with ISIS or any organization.

It's the same type of guys that were burning cars and making riots few times ago, and it had nothing to do with religion. They would consider anything to express their anger, burn cars or blow people...

 

Were you alive back then to know what was common and likely ?

Actually I can tell you it even exists now. Even in the western world. I can give you a personnal anecdotal. Few years ago I decided to grow a long beard, I was in my early twenties but I started to look 30 with that big beard. Some mature women were even starting showing interest and I thought "cool, but I'm gonna lose the younger girls now". I was wrong. One day I visited my aunt and her daughter, who was 13, told me that I look better with the beard. I couldn't believe that a 13yo could find beauty in grown men attributes, but proof that they can. A lot of girls of that age go to Justin Bieber's concert, ok, but there are some mature ones as well that can be attracted by older men.
I also remember during my middle school time, the two best looking girls of the class were in love with the science teacher, who was a grown man in his late thirties. I've read a lot of stuff on the internet about teenage girls being in love with grown men and the problems it could provoke.

There's a feminist lobby that put pressure on the western world and that is trying to put as much blame on men as possible : criminilization for prostitutes clients in Sweden, retardement in age of consent and blame on the men if something happens etc. and this is utterly stupid in my opinion. This even goes against the natural process of things since girls in the western world are physically ready earlier than before due to nutrition and environnement.

The body is ready, the girl might already have sexual desire and think about grown men, but there will be a feminist orientated law as a barrier because of course in those types of relations the myth wants that all grown men that would desire a young girl are pervert and nasty.

Don't get me wrong, I'm talking about teenagers, not kids. It's not pedophilia.

 

What statement?

 

About Mo without a doubt being a pedo, after reading the article I posted?

 

The operation ended a while after 1 o'clock. It went well, but I'm exhausted, and I'm not the one going on and off the operating table with all hardship included.
If there is a God I want to kick his ...well, where can you kick a God...for letting murderous tirants be happy and healthy and such a good hearted person suffer enormously.
I still have your question on hold.

 

By the way...how do people establish how old those mentioned in the Books are at certain moments?

 

As we both know most of what is written in Quran and hadith is complete horseshit. That it is written is undeniable fact though. And that's more important than whether it's accurate or not.

 

Her fall was absolutely terrifying, I felt sick when it happened and feared the worst when she didn't get up. Kind of made the gold in the event trivial for me.