Camp Cupcake 2016

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by keller4president, Oct 9, 2015.

  1. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    And just like Nagbe last year I would have called Kekuta in pre-eligibility to work with him up close, set some targets to shoot for this season. I have him closer to the XI on the full team than all those options based on past form. If he shows more growth he could see competitive minutes. Having Manneh up to speed is going to be more valuable than any extra sharpness gained by slightly more attention going to our 3rd and 5th best U23 wingers.

    I can see Bayern and BMG not releasing Green and Rodriguez because they are doing well with the reserves, but isn't Jose Villarreal fit and available?
     
  2. VBCity72

    VBCity72 Member+

    Aug 17, 2014
    Sunny San Diego
    Club:
    Plymouth Argyle FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I completly agree with you on this. At times i've even wondered about your last point being true but i always felt that it would be a little tinfoil hat-ish to really believe it.
     
  3. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #1378 adam tash, Jan 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
    the crazy part is that that actually isn't true....IT SHOULD BE TRUE! but its not.....he's been systematically lowering the bar since he took the job...its part of the reason why he is so stingy with giving new players real chances...lest they expose that the team could play better than they have been...

    .....when they lose...the rest of the world will go "good try, jurgen....you tried but the us isn't a soccer country"...if he wins..."wow, jurgen...you are the reason the US can do anything in soccer"....he is in a win-win situation and he knows it....no real consequences for losing....total credit for winning.

    ...I mean, this guy got nominated for coach of the friggin' year in 2014 lol..........over costa rica's coach who was PKs from the semis! it just shows how lowly the world thinks of the us in soccer despite recent "improvements".......stereotypes are hard to break...and JK is cleverly shielding himself with them.....he may be "clueless" about tactics...but the guy is clever as a fox when it comes to his career path/reputation.

    one reason (there are others) I am convinced he is a saboteur is the style of play of the entire program since he took over from senior to youth...they play scared and overly defensive with an inferiority complex....it comes from him and how he views the us in soccer....what im unsure of is how sinister it really is....whether he just truly thinks America is sh*t at soccer or if he is doing the bidding of other euro interests under the table.....if you think its too crazy.....why are all the FIFA officials in jail/under arrest/on trial etc???????????????????????????????????????????

    euro soccer owners do NOT want MLS becoming the top league...there is real motive to sabotage MLS/us soccer.
     
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  4. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #1379 adam tash, Jan 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
    you think these euro owners don't watch whats going on in MLS and look at the NBA and NFL and get a little scared?

    wiring payments illegally isn't exactly something that hasn't been going on in FIFA recently....

    Jurgen wouldn't take the job unless he had TOTAL CONTROL....hmmmmm...why does he need total control???? maybe the illegal payments he's getting (totally spitballing right now admittedly) required him to have total control as part of his secret agreement. too hard to sabotage without total control...not worth it.

    "here jurgen, here's your 20 mil for undercutting us soccer...thanks a lot" -Europe...btw, we've nominated you for coach of the year lol

    every 2nd league euro dual nat??? come on down!!!!

    MLS MVP candidate? just a little behind, sorry.

    I don't have proof....I don't know it's happening.

    thing is .....doing juuuuust mediocre enough to not get fired and stay in place as long as possible is the perfect sweet spot for this type of arrangement...which is exactly what he's done. he set the world cup roster up for a second round or bust performance (running his starters into the ground, no backups at key spots, 4th division german over best us player ever, dysfunctional lineups/tactics, etc)...maybe it was on purpose??
     
  5. 6 ft. Leprechaun

    Dec 9, 2003
    Baltimore, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I appreciate the passion but take the tinfoil hat off. He's just an incompetent coach.
     
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  6. chad

    chad Member+

    Jun 24, 1999
    Manhattan Beach
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hi. I can't make it through all the noise in this thread, so please bear with me if this has been answered already:

    Who said "no" and how do we know this?
     
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  7. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I'm "all in" on Kekuta Manneh. I saw him when he was with Lonestar and the Aztex down in Texas. By the way, Khiry Shelton also played for Lonestar in Texas. Austin really is a burgeoning youth soccer environment.] If he was eligible, he'd arguably be the top attacking U23 in our pool. He also fills a desperate need, which is speed at the winger/forward position.

    But we do have other players in that speedy winger/forward role at this camp. U23s (Shelton, Morris) and a veteran (Finlay). Plus we know Kiesewetter and Zardes can also fill that role either on the wing or up top. [Kiesewetter is actually for the 3rd leading goal-scorer for the U23s ALL TIME..................after Steve Snow and Brent Goulet.]

    I wouldn't have had any problem with Manneh getting the call. However, if the staff wanted to look at this other group of guys that can help us with the U23s against Colombia and the upcoming Copa America...............Manneh can't do either. The others can. So next season I expect huge things in MLS from Manneh, and for him to be at this January camp.

    As far as Jose Villarreal, he rarely seems to be fit and available. His stock with the US U23s has fallen precipitously. He's kind of the Galaxy version of Danny Garcia or Zach Pfeffer (other U23s that have fallen out of favor). Not as athletic as guys that made this roster like Morris (and those like Green & Arriola that aren't available.) He's a good technical player, but not as good of a technical player as those that made this roster in attacking positions (Nagbe, Nguyen, and company). For the U23s, is he as good of a technical player as Rubin and Zelalem and Hyndman or even Alejandro Guido (who's currently out injured after injuring his knee at Tijuana)? Is he as good of a technical player as Luis Gil? Maybe. Luis Gil had been disappointing in MLS, but has been an impact player for the U23s. Luis Gil will make the Colombia roster.

    For me the biggest U23 snub wasn't Villarreal..........................it was Dillon Serna of Colorado.
     
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  8. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Yes. And so then it begs the question of why something so obvious to us as a building block for success (i.e. a naitonal team manager that supports and uses MLS to potential so more guys will get chances and Europe and MLS will get better), is so completely mentally un-attainable to the man in charge?

    I mean I get that fans and media, and other third party objective players will critique the league, but why the guy who has the most to lose by critiquing the league?

    Sam question goes for Donovan.

    I think JK somewhat despises the US soccer set up from top to bottom, but really loves America and its culture, and feels he can bring in the Euro mentality and structure that will revolutionize American soccer. For him it is all about the big narrative of changing culture across the board. So you cut Donovan, to send the message that the media and US Soccer establishment is weak, and teach a lesson, even though it actually hurts your stated goals. You bash MLS, ignore its offers to work with you on its academies, and undermine its player acquisition opportunities, even though it actually limits more guys getting to Europe. Because in the end he wants to be known as the great messiah of US Soccer, the guy who knew better and trained some plucky, freedom loving nice guys into a world class nation.
     
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  9. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    #1384 tab5g, Jan 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
    JK gives good kids bad ideas.



    Well, he makes you look like an ass, is what he does, Sunil.

    The example he sets is a first-class ticket to nowhere.
     
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  10. GiallorossiYank

    GiallorossiYank Member+

    Jan 20, 2011
    NJ/Roma/Napoli
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with your points besides the bolded. Jurgen is actually very involved with the academy system and the youth in the country. He often attends academy games and has pushed to restructure the setup towards one common goal. I player/coach an U25 team in the summers, mainly to get college kids fitness etc, and many of these kids think that the level of play has gone up in the academies since JK has signed on. The biggest change IMO was not allowing kids to play HS soccer if they are an academy player, those are two totally different entities/teams working towards different goals, it stalls player progression.

    Recently, I don't think he's been a very good coach, yeah, but after spending some time with some coaches at German teams I think he has some serious knowledge about player development. I hope we don't tune him out in that regard because he continuously selects Nick Rimando or puts out an starting lineup without a #10.

    http://www.ovguide.com/video/jurgen...nships-field-ad07f3d00fd211e4863212313b079db3
     
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  11. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I haven't seen anything to confirm anyone said no. It appears people are jumping to conclusions. The Wahl article was the most I've seen and I can't come to that conclusion. If more I hope somebody shares. As for a player revolt, not sure this group carries much weight.

    For starters, the original plans for the camp have been altered, according to multiple sources. When the players first learned of Klinsmann’s plan, which involved camp starting on Jan. 4 and spending the first week focused entirely on fitness, veteran players expressed their concerns to U.S. Soccer.

    The federation and Klinsmann listened. The start date of camp was moved a week later, but seven veteran players who were on Klinsmann’s preliminary 36-player list are now not expected to be involved in the camp at all: Clint Dempsey, Nick Rimando, Graham Zusi, Kyle Beckerman, Brad Evans, Chris Wondolowski and Gonzalez.
     
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  12. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    #1387 tab5g, Jan 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
    The players (or some important subset of them) apparently said they don't need/want a 5-week camp, when a 4-week camp will certainly suffice.

    Don't know if that request/push-back by the players turned this into a "0-week" camp for some of them, or if some vets will get called in to camp closer to the friendly dates.

    That "preliminary 36-player list" still exists, and this initial group of 23 called in is certainly just a start, and changes/additions likely will be made.

    No one seems to know why some vets are "not involved" (if it was a coaches decision, or if some players said "no thanks" to any form of a call-up this winter).
     
  13. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    This was implemented before Jurgen arrived, even the non-HS playing part.

    That's fine listening to German coaches. I've been reading 'Success In Soccer' on a monthly basis since 2004. Long before Jurgen. Those German youth trainers are not keeping any secrets that only Jurgen has accumulated like some concert bootleg tape and only he has the formula. The information has been out there. US Soccer has paid attention to it and implements it into the academy system, but there is only so much you can accomplish with such a large uncoordinated infrastructure.
     
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  14. deuteronomy

    deuteronomy Member+

    Angkor Siem Reap FC
    United States
    Aug 12, 2008
    at the pitch
    Club:
    Siem Reap Angkor FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My first post, after wading through this thread and thoroughly enjoying the discussion.

    We have epically failed during our last two efforts at Olympic qualifying . . .

    This falls entirely upon the shoulders with poor awareness and poorly directed efforts of our National team coach and technical director, Jurgen Klinsmann.

    So, unfortunately, he is left strategizing on trying to make up the gap by bringing in players to this camp and collapsing a group of Olympic players into a roster with players who might ordinarily be competing for roster spots on the full USMNT roster.

    The failure to qualify for the Olympics in '12 (and who can say what might happen against Columbia), is holding back the possible selection, evaluation and possible incorporation of players who might prove to be useful for the United States on the full team heading forward.

    Had we already, qualified for the Olympics, as we had done, every single time (save one) since soccer became an Olympic sport, the conversations around the player selection for this camp would be entirely different.

    Sadly, Klinsmann's failure in qualifying the United States for the Olympic Games will continue to impact the development of the USMNT ongoingly for at least a generation and possibly even generations to come.

    And equally as sadly, I do not expect him to bridge this gap with future outstanding player selection and coaching acumen, heading forward.
     
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  15. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    I sort of disagree with the failure in the Olympics = expected failure for the future. As MLS gets stronger (or players are in good situations abroad), there are places for these players to develop and grow as players. Missing the Olympics (while disappointing) does not cripple the future.

    We are very unlike almost every soccer playing country. Our players don't become 'complete' until their mid-late 20's as opposed to other places that have 20 and 21 year olds. That may change in the future, but I am comfortable in believing that Olympics are not critical.
     
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  16. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    But in the immediate short-term, the reality of the U23 playoffs this March is impacting (likely negatively) what the coaches/TD are opting to do with this Jan camp for the senior team.

    That the U23s put these extra games on the calendar themselves, that does affect the camp and overall program this month.
     
  17. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Agree that missing out on the Olympics is not that big a deal because the Olympic team really shouldn't be the only/main way that players develop and mature for teh USMNT. In fact, the youth teams, while nice, should be almost irrelevant in comparison to other forms of development. Did any of the top players in the world rely at all on their inclusion into one or more youth teams? (the question is not whether they played at the youth level but whether it had any discernible effect on their current level of play?)

    That being said, the success/lack of success of the youth teams can be an indicator of successes and or failures within the overall system relating to training, development or identification/scouting among other things.

    As USMNT coach, Klinsmann's primary job is not to develop talent but to identify and properly utilize that talent. He simply does not have the time to develop the talent and gone are the days where the USMNT is a glorified club team touring the world in search of opponents.

    By allowing the disappointing results at the Olympics to reduce the numbers of senior callups in this camp, Klinsmann is reducing the number of opportunities to really see and give players extended looks. What Klinsmann has done, is allow the lack of success at the youth levels interfere with the search for talent at the senior level. This is especially critical now because there are several key players that will need to be phased out within the next few years if not sooner.
     
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  18. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Now ask yourself how much NBA/NFL/ESPN guys want MLS to succeed and you want to rip up the whole schmeel and start a new league owned by fans/public that can be run with the integrity of the game foremost.

    Klinsmann is a pretty smart guy who isn't thinking all that much about winning at this stage.
     
  19. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    The Olympics on television inspire young players to play. I am talking about kids 8-12 who are experimenting with different sports.

    There are a lot of people who don't want that.
     
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  20. Bookmesir

    Bookmesir Member

    Oct 14, 2012
    Club:
    FC Aarau
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The narratives in this thread are getting into DaVinci Code territory...neither with any hope of tying everything neatly together as the plot(s) thickens...nor with any heroine in sight ;). I find it very hard to believe JK is part of some uber-scheme to keep US Soccer in its subordinate place. That would be some very strange unethical sh*t...not that world soccer isn't capable of it; as we've seen, there seems to be a price-point anyone involved in FIFA can be had for when discussing the global soccer politic.
    However, JK is a lone wolf, IMHO, who hasn't been able to stem the tide of MLS growth and popularity. He's wedged himself into a place where his understanding and experience fails to accept the supposed limitations of MLS from its single-entity infrastructure to the lack of promotion/relegation to the lack of competition for big-name players to be automatically penciled in as starters...all valid, if not contentious, points. Still, as USMNT coach, he has created uncertainty and double-standards to such an extreme that we expect him to crap on any player who suggests he might have an agenda that contradicts his own; we expect his roster selections to be quirky and lopsided (the current camp cupcake with no true outside backs...like wtf?); we expect a teflon response to any perceived transgression or regression in USMNT shape and/or fortune...
    he deflects it all with the greatest of ease.
    One can only hope there are six points to be had against Guatemala, but this uncertainty is the truer indication of JK's impact.
     
  21. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Sort of jack of all trades, master of none. The ADHD of coach/TD trying to accomplish 5 goals without improving on any of them. That is the system we have had for 5 years.
     
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  22. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    Not sure why his contract was extended when it was, to lock in those adverse ADHD impacts through 2018.

    If Sunil really likes JK so much and wants to let him keep implementing his vision for the program, he should do the noble thing and transition JK solely to the TD role after the Copa Centennial and bring in some other/new coach to manage the senior team through the World Cup.

    In an ideal world, JK would be transitioned off of the senior team duty this month and be with the U23s for as far as he can take them in 2016, and let some new managerial hire come in and guide the senior team through the WCQs and Copa this year. But that ain't happening.
     
  23. bballshawn

    bballshawn Member+

    Feb 5, 2014
    Delaware
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
  24. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Maybe. If you are talking about the women's team. Mens olympic soccer is a no-go zone with the games buried on CNBC SD.

    The Olympics are a giant swim, track and field and Gymnastics meet.
     
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  25. Editor In Chimp

    Editor In Chimp Member+

    Sep 7, 2008
    Except that technical director might be the one thing JK is worse at than coaching. What about his entire body of coaching work suggests that he would be an effective TD?

    Our youth teams have gotten progressively worse under his tenure and he's shown no aptitude in terms of choosing assistant and YNT coaches..
     
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