W-League folds

Discussion in 'US Women's Lower Divisions' started by Nacional Tijuana, Nov 6, 2015.

  1. SJJ

    SJJ Member

    Sep 20, 1999
    Royal Oak, MI, USA
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And most of those "leagues" are one-team leagues, tops. Even the "big" leagues have one team, basically.
     
  2. Game-Ball

    Game-Ball Member

    Jan 17, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    It's women's soccer and Europe haven't had the benefit of Title IX and a whole bunch of other equal treatment like we have here in NA. The leagues in Europe are new. Anyway it's not the point but it does demonstrate geographically and from an organizational point local leagues survive more than a national ( in this case European league ).

    I think the NWSL is a high quality league and it's being careful not to grow to fast and weaken the brand. The W -League had some good quality but on a national level is no longer viable. The WPSL is thinly spread all over with spotty quality and some weak standards. The NCAA is a mere "place holder" for pre-existing talent of all sorts.

    A local, standards based league combining the best youth, college and grads will not stall the growth of the NWSL. It must be held up as the ultimate destination for young aspiring talent so trying to set up another "next best" national league only undermines it.

    A local, standards based league will cost money but it will be easier to find sponsors as it will remain local and have a D-II designation.
     
  3. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    I don't think anyone has suggested small, local leagues will stall the growth NWSL. I don't know where you got that thought. Also
    I don't think you understand sponsorships, or at least sponsorships the size needed to support a sizeable enough league.
     
  4. A. Dufresne

    A. Dufresne Member

    Nov 7, 2015
    I've been away from this discussion for a few days but I'll chime in... while Game-Ball's love of the game is admirable, SiberianThunder and Holden have truly hit the heart of the issues. There's a wide gap between what the WPSL is right now and what a true DII league below NWSL (w/NWSL reserve sides going up against other top semipro/amateur sides) should be. Never mind the burgeoning gap in competition between the top teams and the rest, you can't find a box score on any game to save your life.

    The quality of the on-field product has to have a match off-the-field. We're not just talking about game stats, box scores, starters, etc... but features, videos & at least a "game of the week" webcast. Sponsors want exposure. Not the "take the money & run" philosophy of Jerry Zanelli. That's why they've never had a true national league sponsor. A "sponsor" like Molten doesn't count. All they did was offer a discount for WPSL teams.

    One last thing... how can a league that has over 70 member teams (and of course, the league dues they paid) not have a live webcast of their championship match? Even better, a TV broadcast? Which they've never had in league history... the W-League had many games on TV. Even w/the somewhat lower league fees of the WPSL - in the end, there's not much of a difference - this is inexcusable.
     
  5. StarCityFan

    StarCityFan BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 2, 2001
    Greenbelt, MD
    Club:
    Washington Freedom
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They've had webcasts of the WPSL Final Four before. I'm not sure why there wasn't one this past year.
     
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  6. Game-Ball

    Game-Ball Member

    Jan 17, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    A national D-II women's league is not viable and I highly doubt you will find a sponsor. The NWSL and USSF would probably ban it.

    Players, fans, coaches, team sponsors are better served with a sanctioned, local D-II standards based league. Teams should roster the best youth, college and grad players. No need for ECNL travel, showcase costs and politics.

    One Quality League per State.
     
  7. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Umm... I think you've really gone off the rails with this one. Why in the world would NWSL or USSF ban a lower division? That makes absolutely no sense. I have no clue how you'd come to this conclusion.
     
  8. Game-Ball

    Game-Ball Member

    Jan 17, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Good luck. Let me know when you start your new D-II national league for women. The NWSL and USSF will probably advise you it's not viable and would prefer money be spent on growing one national D-I league.
     
  9. A. Dufresne

    A. Dufresne Member

    Nov 7, 2015
    You're right, StarCityFan. I took a look through the WPSL wiki page and there were webcasts at the one ASA hosted in 2014 and Chicago in 2011. WNY did it for WPSL Elite. No TV games ever. Geez... I remember watching Hampton Roads beat the Chicago Cobras in the W-League final on TV back in 2003. Holy crap that was 12 years ago... wow.
     
  10. holden

    holden Member+

    Dundee FC, Yeovil Town LFC, Girondins de Bordeaux
    Oct 20, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Dundee FC
    Well, take a look at the sponsorships that the NWSL has gotten: Copertone, Mango, and Nike. And that's for the top tier league with the big name USWNT stars. I think it's rather unrealistic at this point to expect a 2nd tier woso league to be pulling in any big sponsorships regardless of whether it's national or regional when the NWSL is struggling to. In that regard a regional league might be able to pull in some regional companies that wouldn't be interested in a national league because their product is not available nationally (now, I'm not saying it'll be easier, just that there is a different corporate demographic they can go after for sponsorships). An example would be In-N-Out, since In-N-Out only has a limited number of restaurants outside of CA and most are still in the southwest-ish (there is one in southern Oregon, and Texas could be argued to not be west) a regional marketing approach makes more sense for them. So In-N-Out might be more interested in a league that occupied just CA, NV, AZ, and UT than one with teams where there are no In-N-Outs anywhere nearby. And I'm not saying In-N-Out is at all interested in such a thing, just that there are sizable companies that don't have a national presence that could be targeted for regional leagues.
     
  11. SJJ

    SJJ Member

    Sep 20, 1999
    Royal Oak, MI, USA
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wonder if it would be better to try for a D-III pro league. From the USSF standards (I guess the biggest change from II to III is not needing a market size; the performance bond is also more in reach):

    Leagueteams, initialteams, later yearstime zones, initialtime zones, later yearsmetropolitan marketseatingperformance bondprincipal ownerall owners
    Division I Women’s Outdoor League81023 (E, C, P)750,0005,000$100,000 $15,000,000 $25,000,000
    Division II Women’s Outdoor League68#N/A#N/A500,0002,000$50,000 $7,500,000 #N/A
    Division III Women’s Outdoor League68#N/A#N/A#N/A1,000$20,000 $5,000,000 #N/A
     
  12. holden

    holden Member+

    Dundee FC, Yeovil Town LFC, Girondins de Bordeaux
    Oct 20, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Dundee FC
    #62 holden, Nov 12, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2015
    Since the NWSL and the WPSL don't actually meet all those standards (for example all NWSL teams do not have 5,000+ seater stadiums), I don't think they would preclude a regional league at D2 if they weren't able to get enough 500,000+ markets. And for Women's D2, isn't it only a majority have to meet the market size requirement? That means if there are 8 teams, only 5 need to be in that 500,000+ market (if there are 9 it's still 5). At 10 it would go up to 6, though. (Not to keep going on about CA, but there are 11 MSAs over 500,000 in CA alone. So it could meet the market size requirements for 20 teams just fine without even having two teams in the same MSA)
     
  13. Game-Ball

    Game-Ball Member

    Jan 17, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    A few questions if you don't mind.

    What is the development benefit of this regional D-II league ?

    What type of player do you expect will play in this regional D-II league ?

    Will the teams field local talent ?

    Will teams be required to have a connection with a youth academy or club ?

    When will the season start and end ?
     
  14. holden

    holden Member+

    Dundee FC, Yeovil Town LFC, Girondins de Bordeaux
    Oct 20, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Dundee FC
    Who are you asking these questions to? Me?
     
  15. Game-Ball

    Game-Ball Member

    Jan 17, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Apologies. There are a few people participating so I was not asking anyone in particular.
     
  16. SJJ

    SJJ Member

    Sep 20, 1999
    Royal Oak, MI, USA
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    http://www.wpsl.info/news/index.php?cat=1&id=2355

    Statement from WPSL - Zanelli. Mostly congenial. Claims 90+ teams next season. No mention of an Elite division. One line of note: "Through the years we tried to find ways to work together but operational differences and franchise costs made it impossible. The USL has shown with their men’s professional division that they could find ways within their organization to excel, but unfortunately the women’s division had slowly been falling off the radar."
     
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  17. Game-Ball

    Game-Ball Member

    Jan 17, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    At the end of 2014 all four Ontario W League teams folded. We created a semi-professional league ( it will be a few years before this has any meaning ) called League 1 with high standards. http://www.league1ontario.com/article/cwnt-head-coach-herdman-leads-learning-session.

    Teams purchase a two year license and must abide by all the standards. Local sponsors help defray costs.

    It's a mix of youth and experience ( age 16 - 26+ ). Young stars are playing with more experienced players under the watchful eye of all the league coaches. As well games are streamed live and recorded for future review by college and national coaches.

    There is no need for extensive travel costs and the associated academies and clubs have facilities and revenue to help operations of the League 1 teams.

    The league runs May to September and I don't believe there are any plans to expand outside of the province.

    If the NWSL expands to Toronto I expect they will have a reserve team in this league.

    Some of the posters in this forum think it's better to have a womens's national or regional D-II league in the US but I have no idea how you will find enough players who want to travel or sponsors for teams playing far away from the home crowd ?

    I am a firm believer in remaining local, building quality and let the rest take care of itself. If the product is good then expand.

    It's Women's Soccer.
     
  18. holden

    holden Member+

    Dundee FC, Yeovil Town LFC, Girondins de Bordeaux
    Oct 20, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Dundee FC
    Ah, well here would be my answers:

    This question really should go first. It is for those above the WPSL level but below the NWSL level. Think of it like NASL is to MLS. Or the Championship is to the EPL. It's a place for pros of a lower calibre than the top division to play.

    It will provide a competitive league for those where the WPSL will provide no benefit because they are too good for that league, but where they can not make it on a NWSL team. This will also "catch" those who might fall through the cracks (think of how many Mana Shims there could be, who went undrafted but then didn't even bother to try out for a NWSL team). Those players will then get 20+ games against higher calibre talent than the WPSL, which will help them improve their game and possibly provide them the opportunity to make it on a NWSL team. This will also make the NWSL stronger by providing it with more seasoned pros. The NWSL could also (theoretically as the rules currently state "overseas clubs" though that is likely due to there being no other domestic professional league) loan their young players out to these teams. A perfect example would be someone like Caprice Dydasco, a US U-23 player who spent most of the season sitting on the bench. 8-12 games in the WPSL wouldn't help her, she was already a multi-time W-League champion with the Pali/LA Blues. However 20 games in a league, with the higher level of play that I propose, would have been more beneficial than sitting on the bench all season.

    Not exclusively. But just like NWSL teams try to gather local talent, they will surely try that too.

    No.

    It will run concurrent with the NWSL season.
     
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  19. SJJ

    SJJ Member

    Sep 20, 1999
    Royal Oak, MI, USA
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm thinking that GameBall is overstating the L1O women's division a bit; same could apply to their men's division (although the men's side is not really all that bad). There should be no "semi-pro" designation. Pro or amateur. You could call it "elite amateur" (I call the PDL this) or "developmental," but semi-pro has no meaning.

    But let's try a blueprint for a pro D-III women's league. Take the eight major regions of the country: Florida, Southeast, East, Northeast, Midwest, Southwest, West (CA), Northwest. For your region to be in this league, you must have between four and six teams. Any less than four, then your division doesn't get formed. (And you can't put single "outlier" teams into a different region.) Any more than six, then you are back to the "quantity"-based WPSL. Yes, there could be some limited inter-regional play when required (because playing the same team more then three times becomes counter-productive). Some limited playoffs in the regions would lead to a single-site final eight. (Alternatively, a final-four in both East and West, leading to a single championship game, but I would still prefer a single final-eight site; it is more promotable.)
     
  20. Game-Ball

    Game-Ball Member

    Jan 17, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I like the definition of "elite amateur" but I think League 1 was sanctioned as semi-pro with the hope of growing into it, whatever that means.

    Generally speaking a North American born player attends college so their professional career is short, age 22 - 26 and then into the workforce.

    I think the issue is the strength of the NWSL so it's difficult for graduating players to break into a roster. Of those who are left out I don't know if there is enough who will hang around with D-II. Some may go to Europe for the life experience. Others look for a less engaged team locally.

    It might be better for the NWSL to expand a little faster while sacrificing some quality in order to give opportunities to more age 22, NCAA graduates and some overseas talent. Get these players into proper training environments faster.

    This could open up D-II rosters so younger pre-college and college players can make the roster. So long as the standards are high for D-II operation a larger and younger pool of players will experience "nearly pro" environments and help with the growth of the women's game.

    If we look at rosters of European D-I and D-II teams we find a wide range of ages including U-20 because there is no NCAA. ( Blech )

    The idea that D-II league play is the means to develop talent is not entirely true. Many professional or elite amateur inter-squad games have more to offer so solid coaching and committed teammates are key no matter where you are.

    In any case I do not believe D-II should be a national or regional league. It should remain in the state in front of impressionable young players. The NWSL team of the same state should have their reserve team in the D-II league. Again, this is good for development and permits players to go head to head against NWSL reserves.
     
  21. Game-Ball

    Game-Ball Member

    Jan 17, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    A follow on comment to my post above.

    NWSL is the brand that needs to be supported and getting it into the communities by having NWSL reserves compete in a local D-II league is one way of doing it. However the NWSL organisations and teams will need to make sure the D-II league has high standards of operation.

    I do not believe there is any league that can grow into D-II. It needs to be a well defined new venture supported by he NWSL.
     
  22. SJJ

    SJJ Member

    Sep 20, 1999
    Royal Oak, MI, USA
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Remember that the NWSL isn't even really "supporting" itself. After the other two women's pro leagues failed, the USSF came up with the notion of directly funding the US / Canada / Mexico national teamers. Why should they also directly "support" another level?

    I was hoping that there would be more discussion of the format of a D-III league, as I gave above. Good point that there isn't really a national sponsor for this, though. Also, is the WPSL Elite concept totally dead?
     
  23. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    No, though maybe it should be.
    Every year, there's been one or two teams hoping to revive it. Just this past summer, RSL said before the season started that they would participate in WPSLE, but then they and WPSL were silent on the issue until the end of the season when WPSL granted RSL and a San Fran team qualification to a WPSLE Final.
    I personally would love to see it revived in full, whether as its own separate competition (as in 2012) or as a supplemental competition (as it looked like it would've been in 2013). Sounds like it'd be an uphill battle, though:
     
  24. StarCityFan

    StarCityFan BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 2, 2001
    Greenbelt, MD
    Club:
    Washington Freedom
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've been told on good authority that both DC-area W-League teams, the Washington Spirit Reserves and the Braddock Road Stars Elite, plan to be back next year. Details will be forthcoming once it's official.
     
  25. GUSF

    GUSF New Member

    Dec 2, 2015
    Greensboro, NC
    I've heard that WPSL is expanding. In particular will see growth in the South. NC and VA possibly.
     
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