W-League folds

Discussion in 'US Women's Lower Divisions' started by Nacional Tijuana, Nov 6, 2015.

  1. A. Dufresne

    A. Dufresne Member

    Nov 7, 2015
    All great points! But I just can't see a two-tier happening in the WPSL. I've worked in both leagues in the past (that's kind of why I'm going on here) and still have friends that plug away at it. From everything I've heard, Zanelli just won't do it: both of his own philosophy + the 3/4 of the WPSL teams who don't want to be considered the lower tier/DIII. When in practice that's what they are. It drags the whole product down. But again... all great points. There needs to be a clear separation for the sport to continue to evolve, for sure.
     
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  2. Game-Ball

    Game-Ball Member

    Jan 17, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    standards - standards - standards.

    Who are the stewards of the game and it's development if not the youth league associations, businessmen ?

    There is to much junk in the national, private leagues who try to grow to fast. Start small and grow quality. Keep it local and do not expand. Good coaching is the way to go and anyone who loves the game will be attracted.

    Example, I hear the Chicago area has a good talent.
     
  3. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Standards are good. Starting small is good. Staying local is not - far too limiting, and far too susceptible to uneven talent growth, leaving too much of the country behind. Not everyone can simply travel to where a good local league is. Far from it. Besides, you can't set "standards" locally. Those aren't really "standards" in the first place if they can't be applied everywhere. You have to have some sort of organization - be it USSF, USASA, or a national league - to hold everyone accountable evenly.
     
  4. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The trouble with it at the PDL level is ( a ) there are few truly high-quality PDL organizations and ( b ) travel. Getting relegated out of a division with reasonable, manageable travel would be a killer for a PDL team.

    Only from 1998 (when there were 31 teams between the two divisions) to 2001 (when there were actually 37). So four seasons.

    And, as I recall, no one really got promoted or relegated. There was annual talk about "Hey, ever thought about going to W-1? The fees are just wafer-thin!" I think the W-1 people somehow were convinced that spending more was going to make it work for them.

    At some point, we'd be truly grasping at straws to try to approximate something that STILL (even at the amateur level) makes zero sense. Unless there is a substantial benefit to being promoted, why force it? And what substantial benefit would there be? Getting to spend more money? Getting that one-day high of "Hey, we got promoted, now I'm going back to school for my senior year and won't be back here anyway?"



    As for the W-League, I'm sad to see it go, but with only 18 teams last year, it was surely dwindling. I think losing Amanda Duffy to Louisville didn't help, and apparently Chris Economides (who was listed as its Senior Director in 2015) had some personal family situation that precluded his devoting full attention to it.

    Remember a couple years back when there was going to be a thing called "W-Pro?"
     
  5. Game-Ball

    Game-Ball Member

    Jan 17, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    We are trying our best up here in the Toronto area with "League 1". One year completed. It's a mixture of very young, some college, some older and other players going overseas. We use FIFA standards like substitute rules, etc and the league has standards for coaching and staff. Our youth will benefit the most so we hope in a couple of years the league will be stronger.

    Some local teams tried to apply for WPSL but I think our local association would not sanction it.

    I don't know why a state like Illinois or others can't start something similar ?
     
  6. StarCityFan

    StarCityFan BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 2, 2001
    Greenbelt, MD
    Club:
    Washington Freedom
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My writeup is at Requiem for the W-League. There's some discussion in there of issues with WPSL, based on not-to-be-attributed chats with various people involved with the WPSL.

    If everyone were rational, it wouldn't be that hard to come up with a national elite league - between the top WPSL teams and the best W-League teams, you could easily get 20 teams involved. (This will probably be my next writeup.) But it's not going to happen because the people who'd need to cooperate are never going to cooperate.
     
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  7. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    You really don't know?
    Ontario has nearly 2/5 of Canada's population.
    Illinois has about 1/25 of the USA's population. Even California has less than 1/8.

    Besides, state soccer associations in the US are largely invisible and basically only work with youth leagues. They won't have the capital or personnel to start up a DII-quality, semi-pro league. Even trying to group things into regions won't make anything remotely covering enough of the US population. Players will be locked out geographically no matter how you divide the country, just because everyone is so spread out. (It doesn't help that the four biggest states are all essentially at different corners of the country.) Having a patchwork of regional leagues also simply doesn't fit the US mentality that any sports league not national in scope is essentially amateur and not worth paying attention to - regional leagues won't gain traction enough to build up to DII quality.
     
    themightymagyar and kenntomasch repped this.
  8. UH60Blackhawk

    UH60Blackhawk Member

    Oct 5, 2013
    I do think there is a need for something in the summer for the U18 and older players who need to keep college eligibility from about mid-May through mid-July. My daughter tried to do W-20 but the team folded after a couple of games. I know ECNL is trying to do a U23, but there are only 10 teams. Part of the reason I started a thread about her possibly playing overseas during our summer. She got frustrated after last summer and asked me to look into it.
     
  9. holden

    holden Member+

    Dundee FC, Yeovil Town LFC, Girondins de Bordeaux
    Oct 20, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Dundee FC
    Ontario population: 13.6 million
    Illinois population: 12.9 million

    Pretty similar sizes.

    And California has a population of over 38 million... that is more than the entire country of Canada. So... I don't think those fractions of the population really is as meaningful as you think it is.
     
  10. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    I'm well aware of their raw size. You missed the point if you're not seeing how the function within the bigger national picture is more important here. California can have as good a league on its own as you went - heck, the Pac-S division of WPSL is pretty damn good anyway - but it's not going to function as a good DII league if it only manages to serve 1/8 of the country - maybe 1/6 if players are willing to travel.
     
  11. Game-Ball

    Game-Ball Member

    Jan 17, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I am sure the country of California has enough good, young players to create a semi-pro league. You don't need a local state association to fund it but they do need to sanction it and help ensure standards. Who cares if New Mexico, Iowa etc don't have a league like this.
     
  12. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Players in New Mexico, Iowa, etc.?
     
  13. holden

    holden Member+

    Dundee FC, Yeovil Town LFC, Girondins de Bordeaux
    Oct 20, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Dundee FC
    I honestly don't see what you're so concerned with. States are not separate countries. People are free to move within the country from one state to another. Teams can set up home-stays or other free housing just like they do now for non-local players. It's more economical to move the good players that are from small states that couldn't support it to a regional league with cheap drivable travel than it is for all the teams to have to fly their entire roster (or at at least most of it) and coaching staff to those places.

    So sure, some no-name player from New Mexico (is there a WPSL team or was there even a W-League team in NM?) who's never gonna play in the NWSL either way might lose her opportunity to play in a competitive league. And that will suck for her individually. But in the bigger national picture? I don't think having teams with lower operating costs so they are (hopefully) more stable, would hurt that bigger national picture.
     
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  14. themightymagyar

    Aug 25, 2009
    Indianapolis
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm starting to see why Archer doesn't want Canadian teams in MLS. Who cares if Canada doesn't have a league like this? Right?
     
  15. Game-Ball

    Game-Ball Member

    Jan 17, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Like MLS is a development league ...
     
  16. UH60Blackhawk

    UH60Blackhawk Member

    Oct 5, 2013
    It is tough. Players from more populous regions have more options. Players in the boonies are often forced to travel for the competition which puts an economic burden on them.
    When we traveled for ECNL some said it was for the college exposure. That was part of it. The other, greater part was that the local club just did not provide the necessary competition for my daughter to advance, both within the team and when they played other local clubs. Traveling several hours to ECNL forced her to play her best every practice and every game.
    We see she will have to do the same over the summers is she wants to continue playing. Nothing local, so she will have to live out of town either in the US or overseas to play soccer.
     
  17. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    White people of means, sure.


    Well, she's SURELY never gonna play in NWSL now.
     
  18. Game-Ball

    Game-Ball Member

    Jan 17, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Supporting a national league at any level is difficult. After professional teams fade away what is left... the local teams and their passion for the sport. I don't believe there is a single good reason to have a national youth, amatuer or even semi-pro league. There is enough quality coaching and participation in a single state to create an affordable, competitive, quality league.

    Europe is like one large country but the last time I counted they had 52 national women's leagues. You can't tell me California doesn't have more participants than some of the European nations.
     
  19. holden

    holden Member+

    Dundee FC, Yeovil Town LFC, Girondins de Bordeaux
    Oct 20, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Dundee FC
    Well, yes you're right about that, but not for the reason you are intending. There are a few outliers, but the majority of college players are white people of means (aka middle-class or better). So in this proposed semi-pro league which would be above the WPSL/W-League and below the NWSL, the majority of them are going to be college graduates. Thus the pool is mostly limited to white people of means, so you are correct. It would be great if there were more diverse players playing soccer in college, but until the current club system changes (which is completely outside of the scope of this discussion), we'll have to stick with what we get.

    However the notion that only white people of means can travel from one state to another is ridiculous. Come to LA some time. I personally know 100s of people who have moved here from out of state that are not white and not wealthy, and I know there are many many more that I have never met. (And no, I'm not talking about foreign immigrants, only interstate migrants).

    You are correct about that too. She's not gonna play in it now, and she's certainly not gonna play in it in the future if she can't even afford to come out to CA since her only option currently for something above the WPSL is to play in Europe (or somewhere else abroad) and last I checked a flight to Europe costs a lot more than a greyhound bus to CA. So there's no real net change on her individual career in my proposed scenario either.
     
  20. Game-Ball

    Game-Ball Member

    Jan 17, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    "So in this proposed semi-pro league which would be above the WPSL/W-League and below the NWSL, the majority of them are going to be college graduates."

    I disagree. You may have a handful of grads who are looking for a job and still enjoy training 4 x week and a game ( league standard ). Many players will be High School and College age trying to stay tuned up and under the watchful eye of experienced coaches in the league ( league standards ) and national scouts ( all games must be streamed for this purpose - as per league standards ).

    It could be a 12 team league based around a city with a diverse population like Chicago and the furthest away game is less than 200 miles.

    Coaches in California, Florida, Texas can be given access to the streaming video and network with the experienced league coaches.
     
  21. Game-Ball

    Game-Ball Member

    Jan 17, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Any state could have their own league like this. I am just pointing out national coaches in other states with their own leagues will have access to reports and video on players from other states.
     
  22. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    #47 SiberianThunderT, Nov 11, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2015
    Fine if you want little, local high-school-and-college-based* leagues like that. But no matter what the organizers of said leagues do, they would be DIII at best. If you're not drawing players from all over the country, there's a ceiling as to what kind of money, what kind of coaches, what kind of facilities, and what kind of respect (including attendance) you will be able to attract. Heck, the only difference between what you're describing and what the ECNL or WPSL individual divisions are is the consistent access to game reports and video.

    *Besides, your proposal does not actually bridge the gap between college players and professionals like a DII league should. Where do the post-college players and journeywomen internationals play? And don't suggest they get sprinkled between the teams in various individual leagues across the country. They won't get the quality competition they need to grow into DI quality if you don't have a handful of teams that concentrate the best players and play each other consistently.
     
  23. Game-Ball

    Game-Ball Member

    Jan 17, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Ai-Yi-Yi !

    What does money and attendance have to do with creating a league of great coaches and young aspiring talent ? Perhaps a good cross town rivalry and local sponsor's who get to see their team play every week can take care of this.

    Do you think NWSL or national coaches are going to shop for grad players who weren't already scouted at at 16 ? Any quality D-II league is going to be filled with U19 talent. They will go to college but that's just a "place holder". If they were already scouted nationally or maybe professionally prior to college and ...they manage not to deteriorate in college then they can continue in the DII league.

    The point of a D-II league is to grow fresh , young talent with some experienced veterans under the watchful eyes of top notch coaching.
     
  24. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    #49 SiberianThunderT, Nov 11, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2015
    Everything comes back to money (and, indirectly, attendance/stature). Leagues don't exist in vacuums, nor on the good will of excellent coaches and organizers.
    Very few coaches will coach for free. Whoever organizers the league / sets the league's standards will have overhead. Getting time on playing and practice fields has to come from somewhere, as does the infrastructure need to provide good shareable video archives.
    This is where we simply may disagree. D-II should not be there to create talent - that's for youth leagues and the NCAA. D-II should exist for established talent to grow from raw talent into true skill. IMO, a D-II league is there to support the above D-I league and provide a stepping stone between D-I level and the amateur/college (or even D-III) level, as well as fill the gap for pro-level players that for one reason or another can't or don't make D-I.
     
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  25. holden

    holden Member+

    Dundee FC, Yeovil Town LFC, Girondins de Bordeaux
    Oct 20, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Dundee FC
    @Game-Ball I agree with SiberianThunderT here. What you're describing is basically already the WPSL. And sure, it needs improvement (I think we all can agree on that), but it fills that role you desire. What I'm looking for is a place above that, somewhere for the players not quite good enough to make it on NWSL teams right out of college (or who did make teams but have since been waived), but still talented enough that they are above the WPSL level. And provide them a competitive environment that they can use to continue to play to hopefully move up to the NWSL some day.
     

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