NWSL League infrastructure challenges for expansion

Discussion in 'NWSL Expansion' started by pressurecooker, Mar 20, 2015.

  1. pressurecooker

    Feb 22, 2009
    Boston
    Club:
    Boston Breakers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    With rumors swirling and expansion likely within the next 2 years there are 2 big challenges that I see that the league needs to address. There are more issues but these are the most glaring problems that I see.

    1. Maintaining a deep US player pool is becoming a challenge. With non-USWNT players not being paid as much as they were in the WUSA and WPS and more opportunities overseas we are seeing more players playing abroad and retiring early. Expansion to more markets is going to thin out the talent further and if the players just outside of the NT don't have enough incentive to keep playing the quality of play in the league is going to take a serious hit, especially in the markets where the NT players refuse to play. Before expansion takes place I think the league needs to increase the minimum salary for a full time player to at least $10,000. This won't solve the problem entirely and the teams will have to support the players in finding other ways to suppliment their income during the season but a 5 figure base salary psychologically is a lot more palatable than a mid-level 4 figure salary for 6 months of work and hopefully will at least delay these early retirements by an additional year or 2.

    2. Allocation was a problem when it first started and has only gotten worse. With some of the best allocated players able to refuse to play in New Jersey, Western NY and Boston there is a serious unbalance in not only talent distribution but with the funding that was supposed to be equally distributed amongst the teams. The league won't do anything to solve the talent distribution issue because apparently they didn't put any mandates in place that a player had to commit to any team. So the players are free to abandon their team(see Abby Wambach and Sophie Schmidt) or force a trade and refuse to play for that market(see Sydney Leroux, and Heather O'Reilly) at anytime the player chooses. So the league tied its own hands when it came to the distribution of talent. What they can do is fix the problem with the money. The league already does require the teams well stocked in allocated players to send some of the funds to the teams that are screwed. I think a better solution is to take the funding that is sent from the 3 federations, collect it in one pool and evenly distributed amongst all the clubs. This would enable the teams who are screwed in a lower amount of allocation players to pay higher amounts for better quality internationals. Also it may force teams like Chicago, FCKC and Portland, who have a high amount of allocated players, to try to trade an allocated player or 2 because they will now have more payroll and salary cap concerns associated with hoarding these players and it could more evenly distribute the talent.
     
  2. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    I agree the allocation thing is a problem... I honestly would suggest either scrapping it once the league expands past ten teams, or changing it such that rosters are decided first, and then the federations choose which players on each team get subsidized based on who they want to see developed. I think the more complex you make it, the harder it is to keep adding teams. Also, at some point, it WILL need to be scrapped, since there's no way I can see USSF paying for 36+ players or Canada paying for even 20+ players, so as the league expands it's just going to short-change some teams more and more.

    The funding thing is less of an expansion problem, I think, and more jest a general players' rights issue, which has been discussed in other threads. At least at the moment, we still have drafted players not making cuts and dozens of trialists per team going for one or maybe two trialist spots, so graduating college players are more than willing to take take the low salaries for the first year or two out of college, and considering how many players graduate each year, I don't think expansion will drain that pool (a high turnover pool, to be fair) any time soon.
     
  3. holden

    holden Member+

    Dundee FC, Yeovil Town LFC, Girondins de Bordeaux
    Oct 20, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Dundee FC
    I would suggest scrapping it when the USWNT CBA comes up for renewal again. But instead of doing a new one with the USSF, it is with the NWSL. And have USSF just funnel the money they used to pay players directly with into the NWSL and have the NWSL pay the players. That money could then be split evenly among teams to sign US national players only (not just USWNT players, but players with US citizenship who will be eligible for the USWNT). It would sorta be like the designated player slots in MLS, but for US players only. If a USWNT player wants to go play in Europe, that's fine. It just means more money to be spent on developing younger players.
     
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  4. Blaze20

    Blaze20 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Seattle Reign FC
    Sep 22, 2009
    Club:
    Philadelphia Independence
    Remind me again why you didn't get the commissioner job? Are you interested in running against Blatter for the FIFA job?
     
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  5. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    unfortunately, nobody is paying any meaningful $$ to see weekly pro woso.

    otoh, a lot of people pay hefty ticket prices to see the uswnt play.

    distributing that money to the teams is likely to help out the average nwsl player in the short run, but will probably not pay the top players in the game enough to make them become the draw that the uswnt usually is, resulting in killing the only golden egged goose us soccer currently has in woso.

    the solution is to get more weekly support of pro woso (obvious, i know, but it's difficult, and I don't know how). that solves just about everything.
     
  6. holden

    holden Member+

    Dundee FC, Yeovil Town LFC, Girondins de Bordeaux
    Oct 20, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Dundee FC
    You seems to be operating on two false assumptions:

    1) That if a USWNT player doesn't play in the NWSL they will no longer be a draw for the USWNT. I'm fairly certain the stars of the USWNT will continue to be the stars of the USWNT regardless of where their club team is located.

    2) That the majority of USSF's income comes from USWNT ticket sales. It does not. In 2014 over half of their income came from "Sponsorship, television, licensing, and royalties" alone, and that is bound to go up with their new TV contract. USWNT ticket sales are just small part of USSF's total income.
     
  7. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    1. on the contrary: giving the stars income to the nwsl where there is no support undercuts the star system [which system is a necessary evil until the nwsl has enough popularity]. thats why i say its shortsighted. yes, the current stars will be stars for a while, but then you'd be left hoping that the nwsl players bring their popularity to the nt, but they have no draw.

    2. enough of it comes from ticket sales, that they have to keep playing those games just to get that income. and those sponsorships. messing with the star system is a sure way to dry up those sponsorships. its shortsighted.

    what we need is a way to organically increase the popularity and support of the nwsl so that we do not need the unwieldly allocation system anymore. players will be picked based on club play and not on how many years they've been allocated.

    we'll still have arguments, but of a different sort.
     
  8. holden

    holden Member+

    Dundee FC, Yeovil Town LFC, Girondins de Bordeaux
    Oct 20, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Dundee FC
    I really don't get what you're trying to say there. Playing in the NWSL currently has no affect on a player's USWNT star status. Alex Morgan became a USWNT star when there was no league because she had an amazing 2012 with the USWNT, she didn't play one club game that year at all. Abby Wambach is still a USWNT star despite her "poor" (according to some BS posters) NWSL performance last season. Syd Leroux is probably an even bigger USWNT star now than she was a year ago despite her scoring less than half the goals in the 2014 NWSL season that she scored in the 2013 NWSL season (mostly due to Morgan being gone and her getting a lot more USWNT starts last year).

    The stated purpose of the NWSL is to help develop players. Paying your stars big bucks while non stars get peanuts and retire early does not develop players. So let someone else pay the stars (Man City wants to sign Hope Solo to big $$, so let her sign with them. And if Wambach wants to go to some European team, let her. The stars aren't gonna go hungry, they are just going to get their money from some billionaire oil baron who owns a European team rather than directly from USSF) and instead pay the developing players to ensure they stick around. Will all the players that they pay to develop become stars? No, of course not. But will keeping young talent around longer give them a better chance to develop and hopefully become stars thus resulting in a greater chance of finding that next USWNT star? Yes.

    Wait... so now you're trying to say that the USWNT will never be able to develop new stars and has to stick to the current group of stars or all eternity? Um... I don't think so. People thought the 99ers would never be able to be replaced. Well, maybe they weren't in total popularity, but the USWNT still ended up with it's current crop of stars who were not 99ers. When this current crop retires, a new crop of stars will develop. It's a given. Abby Wambach not playing in the NWSL will have no affect on whether any of the 2015 NWSL rookies become USWNT stars or not. But if Killion, Dahlkemper, Mewis, McCaffrey, Hinkle, Gilliland, Colaprico, Grubka, Huerta, etc retire in 2 seasons because they aren't paid enough, that will definitely affect whether they become USWNT stars or not.

    In 2014, USSF spent $8,267,453 on the USWNT and $670,678 on the NWSL. That's a total of $8,938,131.
    In 2014, USSF income from sponsorship, television, licensing, and royalties was $28,696,884. (And as I said, they have a new TV deal that pays more. That is a fixed revenue source that is already set for the next 8 years.)

    Total revenue less national team game revenues was $51,732,892. 51 million dollars! They could sell zero tickets to USWNT games and still be able to afford the USWNT and NWSL costs...

    Even if the USWNT game revenue was half of all NT game revenue (which it's not, it's less), it would only be 15% of USSF's total revenue.

    You still have done nothing to prove that a stars status on the USWNT is at all dependent upon them playing in the NWSL. Which really makes this whole line of argument pointless. But I think I've done a good job of showing how even if this scenario you posit were to happen, how little overall effect it would have on the USSF being able to support the USWNT and NWSL.
     
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  9. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    #9 luvdagame, Mar 25, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2015
    ...and my point is that we should take note of the system that made her and so many others stars and beware of taking that money and throwing it into a pro club system that has in the past proven to be a sure way to lose you a fortune.


    i love this.

    don't think i objected to rich people in other countries losing their money on our players.

    absolutely. but remember the allocation system has kept young talent around longer to give them a better chance....

    we don't disagree on this at all.

    we just disagree on if using more of ussf's money on the poorly supported club version of woso is the best use of their money.

    i'm just not sure. that's all.

    what i'm sure of is that ussoccer wants the nwsl to survive as much on its own as possible, lest we get more pretend rich owners entering and creating another bottomless pit for ussf's $$.


    i love all those players. hope they make it to the uswnt. but even if they retire in 2 seasons, it's not going to stop the uswnt from getting new stars. you said it yourself. Alex Morgan (and most other uswnt players) became a USWNT star when there was no league.

    again, not saying that the current system is perfect. it's not. just saying we should be circumspect about taking money away from a system that we know works and pouring it into one that has failed miserably in the past.
     
  10. holden

    holden Member+

    Dundee FC, Yeovil Town LFC, Girondins de Bordeaux
    Oct 20, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Dundee FC
    #10 holden, Mar 25, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2015
    But did Alex Morgan become a star because of the system, or despite the system? My point wasn't that the system works for developing stars. It's that the domestic league has no say on who is or isn't a star on the USWNT in the current system. Becoming a star on the USWNT happens by playing games and scoring goals for the USWNT. The point about all the 2015 NWSL draftees that I listed was not that the USWNT won't find new stars, but that a greater percentage of them have a chance to become stars simply by the NWSL existing providing a place for them to play professionally. But nearly all of them are dependent upon eventually becoming USWNT players in order to make a career out of it, otherwise they will have to retire making it impossible for them to ever become stars. So what really is the best way to develop USWNT stars? Continue to limit it to the few that make it on the team right out of college, or by ensuring that a sizable enough number play professionally that there is a larger pool to choose from? If USSF sticks to the first, then players like Christen Press would be few and far between. They lucked out that she was willing and able to go play professionally in the Swedish league until what time as she was added to the USWNT roster. But she very well could have ended up in soccer obscurity like so many other players of her graduating class.

    This is why a USSF soccer supporting the NWSL at this point in time is imperative. They can afford it.

    Exactly! This is what I'm saying. Let them lose their money on USWNT stars, and let USSF use their money to develop new ones.

    Not really... allocation hasn't been around long enough to really have had any impact. And there's only 4 NWSL era pros (in other words players who became pros in the NWSL era) who are allocated (and Kristie Mewis is the only one really benefiting from the allocation status, as she's the only young allocated player not getting regularly called in to the USWNT). So are we really to believe that those 4 are the only 4 players from the 2013-2015 graduating classes who will ever be USWNT players? Should Franch, Nairn, Tymrak, Brooks, Ohai, DiBernardo, Kallman, and Richmond all retire because they have no shot with the USWNT?

    So your solution to the development problem (which USSF admits it has) is...?

    Of course, we all want NWSL to survive on it's own. Unfortunately the support isn't there yet. It took years and years and millions and millions of dollars in losses in MLS before it was able to be the success it is today. Why should we expect pro WoSo to be any different? It's going to take a while. But how does USSF allocating 25 players who may or may not play in the NWSL help the league stand on it's own more than directly investing that money in players playing in the league? The 2nd way the league actually has the contracts and as the league grows, USSF can slowly pull back it's support. With allocations, it's stuck doing things as it always has and the NWSL will continue to depend on the benevolence of the USWNT players agreeing to play in the league.

    Wouldn't it be better for player development if WNY could use Abby Wambach's salary to pay it's 4 first round picks, rather than USSF paying Abby to not play club soccer?

    You mean a system that we know worked. As in past tense. USSF says that there is a development problem. And as long as they think development stops once a player graduates from college there will continue to be a development problem.
     
  11. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It seems to me that luvdagame is suggesting gradual evolution with a good deal of caution whereas holden more is suggesting revolution with much less caution. I think both make good points. There isn't necessarily a right or wrong position, looking at it from here. Depending on which way things go, hindsight may prove one or the other wrong (the one whose route gets taken, if that occurs), but it probably won't prove either right. And, even using hindsight will be difficult because it's inevitable that the rest of the world will catch up more and more over time.
     
  12. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    #12 luvdagame, Mar 26, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2015
    this i'm afraid of, having watched in misery as 2 versions of club soccer went to the dogs. let the system develop organically, including letting teams fail if they can't cut it. rather than ussf stepping in to do too much more of the heavy lifting. that's how mls developed.

    not enough of them, i don't think.

    silly me. i know that. i meant, of course...

    exactly.... see above.

    those millions of dollars lost were rich owners' "i'll buy myself a team" risk capital. i'm not as willing as some might to do that with ussf dues, tickets, and sponsorship $$. then, we'll have thrown out the baby with the bath water.


    and they have set out a development plan. i like that use of ussoccer dollars while allowing nwsl to develop slowly, allowing new money to become part of woso.

    it's the way soccer is in this country.

    always a slow grind.

    now, if ussf next season said: no more allocation! here's the salary money nwsl! pay people to keep them in the game as you see fit....

    i'd be as excited as every one else.

    but i'll be very, very nervous.
     
  13. chungachanga

    chungachanga Member

    Dec 12, 2011
    The citizenship based pay system won't work, it's not legal in the US. Employers aren't allowed to discriminate non-citizens with green cards.

    So paying USWNT players via USSF is the only way to structure this, if you want only Americans to get that money. If USSF gives the league that money, then teams will be able to spend it on for example current Mexican or Canadian players, if they apply for green cards and get them.
     
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  14. chungachanga

    chungachanga Member

    Dec 12, 2011
    Honestly, I think you both have a good point.

    On one hand, yes, current pay of non-NT members is poor. They need second jobs, especially in winter. It's much harder to reach absolute potential if you can't train full season.

    Women's soccer is similar to 1960s NBA, with Bill Russells and Wilt Chamberlains able to make really good money, while majority of athletes have to work elsewhere during the offseason, and often talented prospects retire very early because they choose to focus on non-soccer careers.

    On the other hand, it's true that USSF paying national team members good salaries directly goes a very long way towards success of NT. Women's NT is not like men's NT, which gathers together once in a while for practice and friendlies and tournaments. Women's NT practically spent the last year before the 2015 World Cup together, practicing, travelling, playing. If a woman goes to play in Europe, where the season is fall-spring, not summer, then that woman can't fit into NT.

    This is why for example Lindsey Horan wasn't a strong candidate for NT last year, even though she's probably more than good enough to be in it. She plays in France, and she just couldn't play with NT full time during fall, winter and spring like the other candidates.
     
  15. chungachanga

    chungachanga Member

    Dec 12, 2011
    I didn't realise that this thread is from March 2015 until now. I guess this forum isn't very popular. I didn't know it exists myself either before today, since it's kind of hidden down the forum list...

    To add to last post, while low league pay is a problem somewhat, I think overall US women soccer doesn't have much to worry about, relatively, since in other countries it's worse. US has high school system, clubs, college. US probably has more girls and young women playing organized soccer than the rest of the world combined. So while it might keep losing a bunch of talent because of low league salaries (at least for now), US talent pool is just so much bigger that I don't see how other countries could keep up.

    The gap is only going to get bigger as women's soccer keeps gaining more attention in the US. I think at some point a few decades from now Women's world cups and Olympics might start looking kind of like basketball men's versions, i.e. US dream team vs. everyone else.
     
  16. holden

    holden Member+

    Dundee FC, Yeovil Town LFC, Girondins de Bordeaux
    Oct 20, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Dundee FC
    I don't, but you gotta figure USSF does. I'm sure there is some loophole their lawyers can come up with to make sure the money only goes to USSF players.
     
  17. FootballAmator

    Aug 16, 2014
    I think it's just the opposite. As other countries funnel more money into the womens soccer they will start to challenge the USWNT even more.
     
  18. chungachanga

    chungachanga Member

    Dec 12, 2011
    Yep I know, 'you' was just a figure of speech.

    They are already making sure that the money goes to USSF players by giving subsidies from USSF to national team members.

    But if they give that money to the league, they won't be able to make sure anymore. Laws are strict, a league or any employer can't discriminate in any aspect of employment based on nation of origin, citizenship.

    There's no chance that they would try to wiggle somehow here, because it's very strict, and because when they get Department of Justice on their heads because of this, which would be very likely, the league and USSF would get involved in a very public discrimination scandal and end up in all the news, not sure the league at this point could even survive that.
     
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  19. chungachanga

    chungachanga Member

    Dec 12, 2011
    I just don't see it, the trend seems to be the opposite to me, with women's soccer gaining more popularity in the US while staying relatively irrelevant in most other countries. I don't see any country funneling enough money into it to give themselves a chance. That would take political will, and without the sport being popular, I don't know which country has the will to invest enough.

    US already has a much stronger financial basis than anyone else for development of women's soccer with Title IX and college / high school sports.

    Now you also see more sponsors, endorsers starting to pay attention, TV ratings. USSF also is putting in a lot of effort and money into women's soccer, relatively. Typical English NT players are lucky to get $70k a year from their federation and soccer league combined, and they aren't popular enough to get endorsements. Alex Morgan and Abby must look like LeBron James to those girls, in terms of wealth, Nike deals, TV commercials and such.

    It just seems to me that it's trending clearly towards a bigger gap between US and other countries in women's soccer, and I don't expect it to turn around.
     
  20. holden

    holden Member+

    Dundee FC, Yeovil Town LFC, Girondins de Bordeaux
    Oct 20, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Dundee FC
    No, the money goes to senior USWNT members, not USSF players. There is a specific reason I said USSF players and not the USWNT...


    Doubt it, but if that did happen, it would be great. As the saying goes, there's no such thing as bad publicity. Getting major media coverage for the NWSL rather than the NT would be incredible...

    And NWSL players seem like, well there are no famous professional athletes to compare them to. And that's what this whole discussion is about: How can NWSL players make a living wage.


    If your happy with the current model where USWNT veterans stay on the team forever and only a select few college age players make it on the team, then there really is no need for the NWSL. The problem with that thinking is other countries have professional leagues that develop the 18-25 year olds and if the US doesn't then player development stops after college. And the number of players ready for the USWNT straight out of college is very small. So they need somewhere to continue developing. I guess they can go to Europe, though... So problem solved? Just disband the NWSL and let European professional leagues develop the 22-25 year olds. So where did that US player development advantage go again?
     
  21. chungachanga

    chungachanga Member

    Dec 12, 2011
    Not all publicity is good publicity. Is the bribes scandal good publicity for NASL? The last thing we need is USSF and NWSL getting investigated and punished by the Department of Justice for discrimination of green card holders.

    Ultimately, it doesn't matter, it won't happen.

    Europe doesn't have professional women's soccer leagues, they have semi-pro leagues just like NWSL. Most of the players in those leagues have second jobs, or are studying somewhere. There are a few teams in Europe that pay their top players pretty well, and those teams are dominant. Generally though, $30k a year is far above average in women's soccer in Europe, many don't even get NWSL minimum.

    US national team starters might be able to get 100k -ish in top Euro teams, as long as they don't all go there at once, because there aren't many of those top teams and jobs.

    Non established Americans don't have a reason to go to Europe at all, unless they look like future women soccer superstars like Lindsey Horan -- although even Horan probably lost money by playing in France, as she'd probably be in the NT otherwise and make more.

    Europe doesn't have any advantage in women player development. Youth development is a joke compared to US high school / club / college system. "Professional leagues" are semi-pro, which is why you don't see young Americans rushing there. Elite players don't get paid more than US elite players, and endorsement opportunities for US stars are unimaginable for European stars.

    Would US national team get stronger if some rich guy came in and gave NWSL a ton of money to raise salaries, so young players could dedicate themselves to sport full time? Sure, of course it would be nice, but it's not some 'do or die' situation like you are painting it. Without that, US has a big development advantage, with it US would have an even bigger development advantage.

    I don't see any good reason to think that US is going to lag behind in women's soccer if it stays the course. The situation isn't perfect, but it's the best in the world.

    Hopefully as US women's soccer keeps growing, one day all NWSL players will become full time professionals, which will make it the only trully professional women's league in the world.
     
  22. holden

    holden Member+

    Dundee FC, Yeovil Town LFC, Girondins de Bordeaux
    Oct 20, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Dundee FC
    #22 holden, Oct 12, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2015
    @chungachanga

    You completely missed my point. Try reading it again, especially keep in mind I propose a hypothetical scenario in which there is no NWSL (as an example, not my own preference, mind you).


    Nope. There is no way she would be above Wambach, Morgan, Leroux, Press, and A-Rod by playing in college (just like Hagen couldn't crack that group by playing in the NWSL). In fact, since she would be in college she would have to be an amateur and have made $0 this whole time.
     
  23. chungachanga

    chungachanga Member

    Dec 12, 2011
    She left college long ago so it's not really relevant to think what would've happened if she went to college. She re-signed in Paris last summer for a second two-year contract in France.

    Hard to say what would happen if she chose NWSL. She's a very good player. Jill Ellis pretty much implied in one interview that if she re-signs in France, her chances at NT won't be good. Then she did re-sign.

    As to me missing your point, maybe I did, but I don't really see what you were trying to say then. US develops women players after college just like other countries do, in a semi-pro league. Grass isn't greener across the pond. What's the point in raising hypothetical scenarios without NWSL?

    Ultimately, it all doesn't matter, because there's no alternative right now to the current system, besides some very rich investor pouring a bunch of money into the league.
     
  24. FootballAmator

    Aug 16, 2014
  25. holden

    holden Member+

    Dundee FC, Yeovil Town LFC, Girondins de Bordeaux
    Oct 20, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Dundee FC
    No, she never went to college.

    Then why did you bring it up? Seems a little shady to bring up some topic and than dismiss it when you get proven wrong.

    Again, you're completely missing my point. You say the US has better development of players and should just stick with the status quo, but then you admit that other countries are doing the same thing, so like I said... "So where did that US player development advantage go again?" Which in essence summarizes what my point was about. USSF needs the 22-25 year olds in the NWSL that are not on the NT to continue to play if the US wants to keep it's advantage. And if they want them to continue to play, then they need to be paid better wages. Otherwise a lot of that investment in youth and college soccer will be wasted when players retire early, which keeps the average level of professional experience in the NWSL down and lowers the overall competitiveness of the league.
     

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