Very interesting thread thanks for all the information... I've written a short blog on the history of the January Transfer Window in football if anyone is interested, feedback is welcome. https://stefanborge.wordpress.com/2015/02/06/deadline-day-dealings/ Thanks!
This looks like fun. I will only go with players I have gotten to see myself with maybe one exception... 4-1-3-2 GK; Sepp Maier RB; Lahm CB; Cannavaro, Beckenbauer LB; Maldini CDM; Souness CAM; Cruyf, Zidane, Maradona ST; Eusebio, Gerd Muller The one change I might make is to replace Zidane or Maradona with 'Der Papierene', Matthias Sindelar. That is simply based on my granfathers opinion who saw him play many times. Right up until he died in 1981 he swore that he had never seen another player like him.
Im not 100% sure about. of course you are correct in saying teams rely much more on physicality and physique and that is the same thing that Xavi mentioned playing under Rijkaard at Barcelona. He was stating that he was not able to thrive because of Rijkaard's belief in physicality. But then comes along Guardiola's Barcelona. With players like Busquets, Iniesta, Xavi, Pedro, Villa, and Messi. these players are by no means the most physically imposing players, but look at what they did to everybody. Including physical teams like Madrid, Manchester United, Chelsea, Bayern Munich, etc. They just outplayed these teams because their technical ability and understanding of the game was on a much higher level.
Do you think Brazil 1970 would be able to compete in a modern world cup ?... I am not saying that players today are more technically gifted i just feel that modern fitness, speed and strength would win the day... Obviously we have to take into account modern pitches, modern balls , modern boots, kit etc
I am taking into consideration players like Spain. We can look at their physical traits compared to the most athletic teams of today or compared to the most athletic players of the past. Spain 2010 and 2012 starting players were Xavi, Busquets, Iniesta, Fabregas, David Villa. These are some of their key players arguably the best offensive players they have. These guys go against teams like Nigeria, England, Germany, Netherlands, France, etc. these players are less athletic and they still win.If you believe that these spanish players are more athletic than the teams i have mentioned then we differ opinion. Looking at the offensive players of Spain and the offensive players of Brazil 1970, i cannot say that Spain has more athletic players offensively. I agree with you that players today in general are more physically advanced but at the end of the day, humans have limits, you can only be so athletic, and at the end of the day, i believe that a good player of the 60s, 70s, 80s, is always a good player. The rules of thinking quickly and being a good player have not changed over time. I am just one of the few people who understand that athleticism can be a crucial factor but it is not the ultimate decider in determining the better team. Im not discrediting what you are saying, its just that i differ in opinion and thats okay.
To put in a different way, lets look at an aging Pirlo against England at the 2014 World Cup. Thats as close as of an example i can think of. Slowest player on the pitch, player with the least aount of running on the pitch but the most dominant and effective player in that match.
Pirlo, yes. But I think you underestimate Spain or Barcelona their field coverage and intensity (15km by Xavi). Also the sheer strength of a few players (the strength of their upper legs, core, helping to maintain balance). They are not all David Silva. Who isn't too weak either but I don't want to pick a very odd example. Other example: at euro2008 only Russia ran more kilometers than Spain (sometimes a misleading stat, I admit). Tend to agree about Pirlo though, as can be spotted by his jumping ability.
No one was talking shit about Xavi's field coverage until Guardiola came to Barcelona. Xavi claimed Rijkaard dismissed Xavi as a key player because of his lack of physical attributes. I will not go too far on this because i have already stated my opinion on this topic. what xavi, iniesta, and busquets do so well is body positioning and they always keep the ball moving, more important than sheer body strength. By moving the ball from your opponent you avoid body contact, by positioning your body the defender cant touch or see the ball. and of course there is intelligence and quick thinking. this is why the three of them can outplay three other players that are stronger than them, and faster than them. All im saying, is though there is undeniable importance to athleticism, and it has increased with players as time goes by. i dont believe this shit, that one team is automatically out of another teams league because of physical abilities. i will not say for example, a player like di stefano, or pele, having been born in this era would not be as good because of physical attributes, thats all im saying. thats really the only point im trying to make.
Only because Deco did the equal amount of work at the time (maybe more), and caught the eye because he was an attacking midfielder, with fairly good imaginative skills. That was unusual for someone of his background and position, and that is why Xavi was a bit under the radar. Videos of a younger Xavi and his vertical movement have been shown in the other thread. Plus, the possession dominance remained about the same without Xavi as demonstrated by the 2005-06 CL games (Udinese, Chelsea, Benfica, Milan, Arsenal)
Here you can see to what extent that was the case (distance, top speed, intensity). http://resources.fifa.com/mm/docume...71/eng_08_0614_eng-ita_ita_teamstatistics.pdf http://resources.fifa.com/mm/docume...92/eng_08_0614_eng-ita_eng_teamstatistics.pdf http://resources.fifa.com/mm/docume.../eng_08_0614_eng-ita_ita_playerstatistics.pdf http://resources.fifa.com/mm/docume.../18/85/eng_08_0614_eng-ita_playersheatmap.pdf All can be found here: http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/matches/round=255931/match=300186513/
I agree with you that Pelé would likely still stand out today but a few things of above do not add up in my perspective. Van Bommel wasn't preferred and he left after one season (which Rijkaard wanted). He was in between his transition from offensive midfielder (at PSV) to defensive midfielder though, and it didn't help the balance of Barcelona their midfield. Xavi started all but two games until he got injured in 2005-06 (18 games) and the same can't be said about Bommel. Xavi also said this in an interview to FIFA.com about Van Bommel: " You often say that you have to treat the ball right. What do you mean by that? It’s just one of the ways I use to express my respect for the game. Controlling the ball, keeping possession and the way we position ourselves to enable us to move the ball quickly around the pitch by playing it to feet are all crucial to our style. Our game is both simple and complicated at the same time. I remember Mark van Bommel used to say to me that the ball moved too fast over here. He was used to receiving the ball and then deciding what to do with it, but at Barça you need to receive it and play the ball first-time whenever possible. Who was the biggest influence on you tactically speaking? Frank Rijkaard was the one who really won me over. Radomir Antic had already pushed me slightly further forward, positionally speaking, and even Charly Rexach had tried me in that linking role in the odd game. When Rijkaard told me I was going to play there I thought I might struggle, but the truth is it’s my natural position. " The irony is that at the time (2002-2008) Barcelona wasn't seen as a physical team either, compared with rivals as Chelsea and Milan, even Arsenal. Only at hindsight the invested labor and athleticism becomes appreciated. And while Busquets became eventually favored over Yaya Touré, the phases of intense and prolonged pressing, chasing the ball, were absolutely more sparse and dosed as later with the Guardiola era. It was (maybe) rather the Guardiola era where distance covered and intensity stood out more relative to their rivals. I also think Xavi his field coverage was sometimes noted, in particular when during his injury Deco stepped up further (you can read some old message boards, such as on redcafe "Deco added bite to his game last year when Xavi got injured and kept Van Bommell on the bench at Barca but isnt the same class of passer as Xavi, Pirlo or Alonso") and also when Xavi returned from injury and wasn't yet at his previous best again. And how can he be deemed "terrible" and "useless" when he was a surefire starter between 2006 and 2008 (even with hangover from injury)? In 2007-08 he had even his best scoring season to that date, and his main colleagues/rivals in midfield consisted of Iniesta and Giovanni dos Santos. As for 1.70m players being "simply impossible": there was Iniesta (1.70), Giuly (1.64), Saviola (1.68), Deco (1.74) and Bojan (1.72) who had perhaps his best season. Xavi regularly says nonsensical things, me thinks.
Ahh yess! i was discussing that with @lessthanjake and he said the same thing. he says one thing, then later says the complete opposite thing.
Then look at him for the first hour of the 2006 WC Final where he couldn't really get near the game with the dominance of Vieira and Makelele. So, it really is a jury will always be out kind of thing.
you missed my point completely. you are taking that comment out of context. the initial argument i made was that i do not take credit away from players from the past because they are not generally as athletic as players today. i believe that good players are good players. football is a game where technique and speed of thought win. thats why i used pirlo's performance against England WC 2014, to show that a player can run the least, be the slowest player on the field, yet still be the most dominant.
I tried using the link in post 1 for goalkeepers just now, and it didn't work (I'm sure it did originally though) but the thread is still available: http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-100-greatest-goalkeepers-of-all-time.1245346/ I found that by doing a Google search on 'Greatest 100 goalkeepers all time', but you could also do it by looking on comme's profile I think.
I noticed that on last years Sheep Draft thread, the link I'd posted to the Update thread doesn't now work so maybe it's a common/inherent issue comme?