2015 Gold Cup (R)

Discussion in 'Gold Cup' started by Sebsasour, Aug 11, 2014.

  1. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    Handheld makes it tough to edit but I wanted to add that the GC is every two years while the Eurois 4 years. That is cuz UEFA has the dough. OTHERS LIKE CAF do it 2 years do it every two years cause they havecosts to cover
     
  2. MK3owner

    MK3owner Member

    Jul 26, 2010
    Kissimmee FL.
    Club:
    Deportivo Toluca FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Highly disagree.

    You underestimate Canadian futbol culture. Look up their respective club's attendance records.

    Unless you're an accountant for CCAF then you dont know if a Gold cup outside of the US is not profitable. Will it be as profitable as in the US? No. I still dont understand your obsession with CCAF's and the Federations profit margins.

    And yes money talks, but explain to me why every other confederation has a different host every tournament, except for CCAF? Could it be that maybe there is profit even when a tournament is held in poorer/or smaller countries? Maybe CCAF has horrible broadcasting deals, and needs ticket sells to offset the cost? I dont know for certain, but I highly doubt it.

    Gold cup =/= World Cup.
     
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  3. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    MK3, have ever taken a business class? Not trying to be facetious but it seems like you argue with no concept of budget, funding and sponsors. Two examples, I will take from the rugby world which I normally right about.

    The RWC 2011 was in New Zealand, a rugby mad nation but still a financial hit because of the work to get there by fans and etc. In 2015 it is going to be in England and it is going to be huge because the fan travel is easier and so will make more money. They are going to gamble with 2019 in Japan, with the plan to bring it back to a money making nation like Ireland in 2023. You see, if you take a hit for one tournament there is pressure on that next tournament to make up more than enough money to even things out. So if they move the GC from America, CCAF has to be prepared to take a financial hit. That means the budget will be tight for the next two years to the the "right thing." You may say so what but have you ever agreed to an idea that will lose you money??

    The second rugby reference is that my club host the largest 7s tournament in the country. It is all hands on deck from the Old Boys working concessions to the youth lining the fields. This tournament accounts for 80-85% of our annual budget. A lot is spent in money and manpower to get a lot back. Now the GC accounts for most of the budget of the tiny nations like Jamaica, Panama and Haiti. So why would they be willing to lose money and huge part of their budget. What do they gain from this? They could host it but the financial outlay would eat up the profits. Then after a less money making GC, they would have to hope the next one would offset it but how could they make sure of that. They can't so it may mean like adding more teams which is a greater expense and may cost money in the long run.

    Finally, UEFA are the big dogs and amount of GDP of their member unions allows them to move it around. They are so rich they host their tournament every 4 years. Also Europe is about the size of the US so it is not really moving it anywhere tough physically, just a different country with a massive open borders policy. As for AFC, CAF and Conmebol, it is usually down to attendance and cost of tickets and etc. AFC moves it around. one year 4 nations had to combine to host it. 4 NATIONS!!! The lost revenue in ticket prices must have been outstanding in that one. That is the problem, financial viability. The GC allows prices in the strong US dollar currency and attendance. I am sure Mexico is diverse but as I pointed out, the low turnout for Jamaica v Haiti in this GC is still better than what could be expected in Mexico since the EL Salvadorians, Guatemalans and Hondurans may turn up for their national team but not those of the caribbean and there are not enough Caribbeans to sell to in Mexico.

    If you want to say that in practice it should be done, then yes I agree with you. But if you want to argue it is physically possible and CCAF are just being tools about it, then I think you need to read this book
    Soccernomics: Why England Loses, Why Germany and
     
  4. slaminsams

    slaminsams Member+

    Mar 22, 2010
    Panama doesn't make most of its budget at the gold cup I am not sure where you heard that. Concacaf does use some of that money as prize and participation money as well as handling the logistics of tournaments but no way is that money financing the bulk of Panamanian football. They have financed their new stadiums, coaches and programs by themselves as do all Central American teams. The most a country is given at the gold cup is 1 million and that only recently started to be the case in previous editions it was a lot less

    A big chunk of the money has just gone into the pockets of people like Blazzer, Warner and now Webb among others. This is not a well-run business
     
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  5. MK3owner

    MK3owner Member

    Jul 26, 2010
    Kissimmee FL.
    Club:
    Deportivo Toluca FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    1)And you are arguing like you know all of CCAF's expenditures, sponsor contracts, and revenue. Unless you are a financial bookkeeper for CCAF, you cant say hosting the Gold cup outside of the US, would be unprofitable.

    2)You are not comparing apples to apples though. You are comparing a WC like event to the Gold cup. Nevertheless, its not even the same sport. And yes I know its an example, but a bad one IMO.

    3)Didnt know you had a magic ball

    4) You keep on assuming you know CCAF's finances.

    5) You know this how? unless you are the financial adviser for the entire futbol world, its pretty hard to take you seriously. And last time I checked the Gold cup wasnt a charity.

    6)I never said every single country should host it, immediately.

    7)Wut?

    8) Thats not why they host the Tourney every 4 years.

    9)Jesus, no one is talking about moving entire stadiums too. LOL. Planes how do they work?

    10)And how is this different from CCAF?

    11) Speaking out of ass. Show me the receipts that show the AFC losing money on that cup.

    12)Are you by any chance Jack Warners son?

    13) So? There'll be plenty of Caribbeans to sell to when they host a cup.

    14)It is possible because its been done. Why are you so obsessed in Justifying CCAF. You know they are not the most trustworthy of people. The FBI doesnt indict people on corruption charges for no reason.
     
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  6. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    But it is still a business and money needs to be made. Which is what I was hinting at, if a bit off. Holding it out side of the US would mean a loss in expected funds.
     
  7. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    #857 Deadtigers, Jul 27, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2015
    1 - I know the basics of logistics, event organizing and budgeting, something you obviously don't are ignoring.
    2 - It is a quality example if you are comparing organizing tournaments and costs. You of course want to be simple minded and focus on a different sport.
    3 - Told I report on it and World Rugby (FIFA for Rugby have huge projections)
    4 - I don't know FIFA's finances but based on the decisions made by FIFA and other IGOs, historically.
    5- Actually you got me there, I don't know this for a fact and it appears I was wrong to include Panama, but it is still a top off that each nation and their presidents look forward to line their pockets and some what help the union.
    6 - Not every single country but whoever hosts it has to make the overlay.
    7 - If you lose money because of where you host your championship then the tournament after it must make up the loss and that is a gamble because it can't be guaranteed.
    8 - the Tourney is held ever for years because it is not as important as CL and the Euro's affect that
    9 - Travel, cost of tickets. What do you not understand about logistics!?!?
    10 - It is different because of Travel and attendance and the caribbean stadiums aren't as big.
    11 - Again being deliberately obtuse. But know I don't have receipts just GAAPs
    1996United Arab Emirates
    2000Lebanon
    2004 China
    2007
    [​IMG] Indonesia
    [​IMG] Malaysia
    [​IMG] Thailand
    [​IMG] Vietnam
    2011[​IMG] Qatar
    2015 [​IMG] Australia
    2019[​IMG] United Arab Emirates

    you see this moving around. UAE has money, Lebanon doesnt, so China does. You have to sandwich the loser tourney with two winners to even out cost. The 4 part tourney is followed by Qatar who have money but Aus was a sure bet money wise and now they are UAE because they have stop playing with losers.
    12 - No I understand money and how the world works. I don't live in the world of hope and should. Things cost money to get done and you can't have an imaginary wish and ignore all the other factors!! like you do.
    13 - Again, what Sponsor wants to pay to see stadiums not filled, how much revenue is being lost with fans not buying tickets? Oh but it is just money right. TV deals to show empty stadiums and no interested fans, yeah that will bring in the casual viewer.
    14 I defend this idea because what your calling for is nonsense. Aren't you the one denying the existence of CCAF corruption and calls in the GC, so we are in the same boat.
     
  8. slaminsams

    slaminsams Member+

    Mar 22, 2010
    Given where the funds go I still can't figure out why you are arguing so hard for keeping it in the US forever. Univision's TV contract alone insures this is a profitable event.

    They could compromise and do every other in the US
     
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  9. PabloSanDiego

    PabloSanDiego Member+

    West Ham United
    United States
    Jan 18, 2014
    San Diego, CA
    Club:
    West Ham United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    my take...I wouldn't mind seeing it rotate to other countries. Put 2017 in Mexico, 2019 in Canada and 2021 in the Caribbean, I'm OK with that. (1) it's fair, and (2) I wouldn't mind catching some games in those countries.

    But, I am sure that CONCACAF will earn less money. I don't need to be an accountant or have access to CONCACAF's books. I've read over and over that money is the main reason it's been staged in the US now for 6 consecutive Gold Cups. Why else would they keep playing it here? It has to be because more money is made staging it in the US. Otherwise, it makes no sense to keep doing it in the US.

    But my own opinion is to move it around. I just don't think it's going to happen, and money is the reason. There's probably other factors too, but I think money is the main one.
     
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  10. MK3owner

    MK3owner Member

    Jul 26, 2010
    Kissimmee FL.
    Club:
    Deportivo Toluca FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    1) Thats fine and all, but you keep on ignoring the fact that you dont know what the contracts are worth or the revenue that is being managed. The gist of your argument is that a Gold cup outside of the US will be unprofitable. This is pure assumption by you. And if not then tell us what the TV contracts are worth for the Gold cup alone.

    2)Its not, because not only is it not the same sport, its not even a comparable event to the Gold cup.

    3)Cool, but do you know what a projection is right? At its core its still a guess.\

    4)Bingo

    5)I dont know if I misunderstood your sentence, but what you just described is corruption. Why is this ok to you?

    6)Um yeah. Obviously. There are other countries other than the US that can do that

    7)Ok, why are you so concerned about CCAF's money. If this is such a big deal than you can have a risky Gold cup host followed by a safe host.

    8)See, if you knew the answer why did you have to bring up GDP and all that noise.

    9)And travel is free in Europe?:rolleyes:. You know there is a huge difference between gas prices in Europe and the US.

    10)Um no its not. All other confederations are as large if not larger than CCAF, so travel isnt a factor when compared. And how is attendance a factor? you dont know because there hasnt been a Gold cup outside of the US in years. There isnt any up to date data that shows that a Canadian or Mexican , or even Central American would be a flop attendance wise.

    11)I knew that too.
    So what you are saying is that you know without a doubt that there is no money in Mexico or Canada or C. America. Thats why there isnt a sandwhich just a continuous ham, figuratively speaking.

    12)Apparently you live in a world where you know all the finances pertaining to the Gold cup.

    13)Wut? what does that have to do with Caribbeans in Mexico(or lack there of)?

    14)I never denied CCAF corruption, I denied match fixing. And while match fixing is corruption, its not pertaining to the corruption the two top dogs in CCAF got indicted for. Or are you suggesting that the FBI indicted Chuck Blazer and Jack Warner for shits and giggles? I have yet to see any evidence that shows a fix was in, in the Mexico vs Panama game. But keep on putting words in my mouth, I see you are fond of that.
     
  11. PabloSanDiego

    PabloSanDiego Member+

    West Ham United
    United States
    Jan 18, 2014
    San Diego, CA
    Club:
    West Ham United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    dude...if it's not money then why have the last 6 consecutive Gold Cups been in the US? There's no other reasonable explanation. And why will 2017 probably be in the US too? I'm sure Mexico or Canada or the Caribbean countries would love to host it. So why doesn't it happen if it's not that more money is made for everybody by hosting it in the US? Again, I'd like to see it played somewhere else, I just think that making more money overrules everything else in this situation. I don't like it, but it's the reality.
     
  12. MK3owner

    MK3owner Member

    Jul 26, 2010
    Kissimmee FL.
    Club:
    Deportivo Toluca FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Dude I never said it wasnt the money, clearly that is one of the reasons. Dead tiger insists that a Gold Cup not held in the US would be ,without a doubt, unprofitable. I highly disagree with that. All other Confederations move their cups around, why is he so obsessed with justifying CCAF. There is no data that shows that a Mexican, Canadian, or perhaps a joint C. American, would be unprofitable, or a flop attendance wise. He brought up the fact that there is a small Caribbean presence in Mexico to justify that argument. Fact is every other Confederation has games with low attendance, but apparently CCAF shouldnt, and thats also some of his reasoning for not moving the Cup.

    Apparently it does, but that does not make it reasonable to not move the Cup. Nor does it make CCAF immune to criticism on the matter. And it is apparently, almost blasphemous to criticize CCAF and its associates, because reasons.
     
  13. PabloSanDiego

    PabloSanDiego Member+

    West Ham United
    United States
    Jan 18, 2014
    San Diego, CA
    Club:
    West Ham United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    OK, I'm with you on that. But you're also going overboard on what he's saying. Nobody is praising CONCACAF and their officials, proven to be one of the most corrupt group of crooks anywhere in the football world. At least I hope nobody is defending them.

    I think they can turn a profit in Mexico and Canada, just not as much profit. Probably a joint Central American event too. The Caribbean might be harder...there's a lot more unknowns there. You say "There is no data". I'm sure CONCACAF crunches those numbers regularly. But they're greedy bastards, and the US always comes out more profitable, and that's why they never change it. The more they make, the better they look to those they report to. And the better their lifestyle. First class plane tickets, 5-star hotels, unlimited free meals at top restaurants with $1000 bottles of wine. And that's the "legitimate" stuff...I'm not even going to speculate on where some of the money goes in these federations (we know some of the history now from the Glazer docs). They need to keep the money rolling in. So US it is, year after year.

    As I said I don't like it. It makes the whole confederation look bad. We already have a credibility issue and this doesn't help.
     
  14. MK3owner

    MK3owner Member

    Jul 26, 2010
    Kissimmee FL.
    Club:
    Deportivo Toluca FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    I think he's the one going overboard IMO. Im simply countering his points, that I feel dont have a basis aside from his assumptions.

    1)Yes Ive said this many times. What I dont understand is why thats such a huge issue(CCAF not making as much profit)

    2) Im not so sure.

    3) Yes I agree

    4)Yes, its an embarrassment that the Cup is always in the US. And they should be called out. Not justified.
     
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  15. artielange84

    artielange84 Member+

    Aug 7, 2014
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    Time to unsub
     
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  16. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    This
    is answered by

    MK3, I know PSD isn't agreeing with all my point but even when someone else tells you it will be less money, you are like so what?? Less money made at the tourney, in all aspects, means less money for everyone. You don't need access to finances to know basic commonsense as to which country it is more profitable and that is why it is not moving. Nobody wants to take the hit. Because if they take the hit, they need to bring it back to the US the next year and that still won't make up for the hit they took in the previous tourney.
     
  17. J'can

    J'can Member+

    Jul 3, 2007
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Story time: One day a few years ago when Man United was actually winning things my wife asked me at the start of a season "why don't they let another team win it this year?" I am looking at her blankly because I genuinely didn't know how to answer her. So I said, "because they want to win it this year?" which honestly want much of an answer.

    What I really wanted to say was "what the hell kinda question is that?? What do you mean why not let someone else win??? Are you kidding me?????????"

    So MK, seriously, are you kidding me??? what do you mean why is it an huge issue them not making as much profit?????? If we have to explain that to you then we should close the thread right now!
     
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  18. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    Man U, huh, J'Can. Knew there is something I liked about you!!
     
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  19. slaminsams

    slaminsams Member+

    Mar 22, 2010
    Explain this to me why is it so important for a fan to defend maximizing profits over sporting fairness because it's not like anyone ever argued hosting the gold cup outside the U.S. would be more profitable and Concacaf corruption because we now have pages of it
     
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  20. MK3owner

    MK3owner Member

    Jul 26, 2010
    Kissimmee FL.
    Club:
    Deportivo Toluca FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    What!? No one is is talking about winning a chance to host Gold cup. Every other confederation has a moving cup. Are you guys telling me that every cup generates the same amount of money for all the other confederations except CCAF's? Of course its an issue for the ones profiting on it, but why does that matter for fans, why are we not allowed to criticize CCAF for this?
     
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  21. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    MK3, keeps claiming I don't have access to CCAF's finances so I don't know, so what if it will make less money, I am Jack Warner's son and they should just do it regardless of the money loss. I just try to tell this idea won't work and it is a bad one in practice. In theroy yes they should move it around but why would you expect them to kill the goose that lays the golden egg or be against something that benefits them.
     
  22. slaminsams

    slaminsams Member+

    Mar 22, 2010
    Concacaf is run by corrupt, LAZY, officials they aren't crunching the numbers and projecting what a gold cup in Panama would look like then deciding for the US instead I guarantee you.

    This is a fed that is run by people so stupid they filmed themselves taking bribes. They once did a ccl draw and forgot their own rules so they had to redraw the teams. Caribbean championship hosts and formats are announced weeks before the tournament starts and sometimes the format is changed AFTER the competition has started.

    It's easy for even them to see that a US run tournament can turn a profit. They will never do the legwork to grow the sport more there just going to keep feeding off the golden goose because it's easy and profitable. There are otherwise to increase profits long term but that would require work and the most there willing to do is host a game in Canada once see if people show up then give up on the idea
     
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  23. J'can

    J'can Member+

    Jul 3, 2007
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Everything is relative. There is no black and white. This Jerry Maguire nonsense should cease immediately. Money is needed to fund everything. And if money is not to be made, people back out and look elsewhere. It is not just GC money. It is also sponsors needing to spend their money in the best areas to maximize thier use of funds.

    Sporting fairness is also relative. Sure rotating the GC might be seen as being fair. But running a profitable tourney that maximizes the return results in more opportunities for smaller teams, more exposure for the better players. Keeping the GC in the US makes the most money and it then allows for the game to be funded across the board. What is the point of rotating it to be "fair" when that results in less funds for federations to fund thier programs.

    Now, the argument that federations are corrupt is a seperate issue and has nothing to do with the choice of where the GC should be hosted. Look, FIFA is awash with money and can afford to rotate and take a loss and still fund the federations (actually we know they fund stuff that shouldnt be funded ie - their own pockets) but GC isnt that rich. Maximize the profits and try to keep the entire region in play.
     
  24. slaminsams

    slaminsams Member+

    Mar 22, 2010
    #874 slaminsams, Jul 28, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2015
    Well you don't have access to their finances and you're guessing as to how the gold cup would do outside the USA

    Much like your other examples they don't have to kill the golden goose they just don't need to be as greedy. They can rotate it and bring it back to the US since it's every two years. Arguing for corrupt officials to keep their gravy train going is what you're doing at this point because everyone understands the USA is the most profitable host that was never a point of debate
     
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  25. slaminsams

    slaminsams Member+

    Mar 22, 2010
    Two questions do you know how much the TV contracts are worth at the moment for the Gold cup?

    Which Federation do you think is running their program on gold cup profits?

    The corruption at Concacaf is very relevant because we know now where a lot of that money was going now and it those people that are deciding how to run the gold cup
     

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