The Catch All Post Signing CBA Thread

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by MLSFan123, Mar 4, 2015.

  1. LordRobin

    LordRobin Member+

    Sep 1, 2006
    Akron, OH
    Club:
    Cleveland C. S.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, supposedly the lawyers are working on it. It's a painstaking, effort-intensive, boring pain in the ass, allegedly, which is why neither side could be bothered to do the work five years ago. I would give them at least a month from when the deal (i.e. the memorandum of understanding) was signed. So we can start bitching in three weeks if nothing has been posted by then.

    ------RM
     
  2. 4four4

    4four4 Member+

    Nov 13, 2013
    Land of 10,000 Lakes
    When lawyers get involved with negotiations everything stops. They need to get paid to you know.
     
  3. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When do the players vote to ratify the CBA? I assume that has to happen to make the CBA official?
     
  4. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    I have full papers but I am not releasing it because baseless speculation is what I live for.
     
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  5. 4four4

    4four4 Member+

    Nov 13, 2013
    Land of 10,000 Lakes
    It's what makes BS fun. As soon as the CBA is released within a month this thread dries up. ;)
     
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  6. dodgers323

    dodgers323 Member

    Apr 13, 2006
    Los Angeles, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Does anyone know what the new salary cap is, or in true MLS form were the financial terms not disclosed?
     
  7. j66j66

    j66j66 Member

    Apr 26, 2005
    Portland, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i think it's $5 million. somewhere around there.
     
  8. vividox

    vividox Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 10, 2005
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Where did you see that? The only hints that have been dropped are 15%-ish percent over last year, which would be $3.5M-ish.
     
  9. j66j66

    j66j66 Member

    Apr 26, 2005
    Portland, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    sorry, my sarcasm was too Kaufman-esque.

    it's really $8 million, because of the DP depreciation cash calls.
     
  10. vividox

    vividox Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 10, 2005
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    I don't think that word means what you think it means.
     
  11. j66j66

    j66j66 Member

    Apr 26, 2005
    Portland, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
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  12. Revolusean

    Revolusean Member

    Aug 27, 2009
    Worcester, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    I don't know if this number had been reported before….

    I was at a Revolution season ticket holder event last night, and during a Q&A the GM Mike Burns confirmed that the roster size in the new CBA was now 28 players instead of 30. There are still 'senior' and 'supplemental' spots on the roster but he did not mention what the breakdown between them is.
     
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  13. MLSFan123

    MLSFan123 Member+

    Mar 21, 2011
    Boston Area
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    it was first reported here but always good to see it confirmed

    http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2015/03/06/mls-cba-deal-players-union-bob-foose-todd-dunivant
     
  14. triplet1

    triplet1 BigSoccer Supporter

    Jul 25, 2006
    I've yet to see if the difference between the 15% bump year one (and 5% escalators) reported early on, and the 20% bump year one (and 7% annual escalators) that Dunivant mentions is the inclusion of allocation money in the salary budget. Obviously, allocation money existed prior in prior CBAs, but it was in addition to the capped portion of the salary budget, not equalized and included as part of the budget. So is the allocation money still out there and is this some new pot of allocation money?

    Has this been clarified by anyone involved in the negotiations?
     
  15. OleGunnar20

    OleGunnar20 Member+

    Dec 7, 2009
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Orlando City Soccer ticket sales surpass expectations
    WESH Orlando

    an interesting quote from this article:

    so a bit of quick math, let's say they average 1/3 of the 62,500 for the rest of the 16 games at the CB (about 21,000 a game, very doable since they seem to have upped the cap for this next game to 30k).

    and for the sake of easy math let's round the concession revenue for the opening game to 750.000, making the projected concession revenue 250,000 for the remaining 16 games.

    250k x 16 = 4m + 750k = $4,750,000 in just concession revenue ... now they have to share some of that with the CB venue operating company but still ... not tickets, not parking, not merch ... just in concessions alone OCSC could rake in some 2M+ (assuming 50/50 split) in concession revenue.

    so yeah, i buy that mls is "losing" $100m a year ... :whistling:
     
  16. s1xoburn

    s1xoburn Member

    Aug 25, 2014
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    I would be very hestitant to extrapolate concessions earnings from the first match a team ever plays. Presumably many fans bought merchandise (scarves, etc) who won't bet getting those every week. If anything I would remove the 1st week data point and look what the per attendee average is taking that out. Also, I think the DC United Stadium study had information on the typical concessions/attendee in MLS matches.

    This isn't to say a sports league doesn't dramatically overstate its losses when CBA time comes around. They all definitely do that, and you don't sell franchises for $100 million when you are losing $100 million/year.
     
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  17. OleGunnar20

    OleGunnar20 Member+

    Dec 7, 2009
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    you understand of course that concessions sales (food and bev) are not the same thing as merchandise sales (jerseys/tshirts/scarves) right?

    i'd say that people weren't likely to have eaten or drank more or less than usual just because it was the inaugural game

    and the average concession per person in this case was somewhere between $11-12.

    from the study you mentioned (pg 26):

    but thank you for playing, we have some lovely parting gifts for you including a year's supply of Rice-A-Roni, the San Francisco treat.
     
  18. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    In other words, there was already vastly better information than anything Orlando City's opener could've told us.

    Any CBA news?
     
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  19. Kappa74

    Kappa74 Member+

    Feb 2, 2010
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    It would be interesting to learn how Bob Foos reacted to the Heineman qoute in the Howler piece on Miami.
     
  20. blacksun

    blacksun Member+

    Mar 30, 2006
    Seoul, Korea
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I see people say this all the time but never justify it. People invest millions in businesses that are losing money all the time. A significant portion of IPOs have no profit. Twitter raised over $2 billion in their IPO despite never turning a profit. Early-stage venture capital funds routinely invest millions in companies that have no revenue, let alone profit. Someone is willing to invest money in a non-profitable business if they believe that it will become profitable in the future or that the value will increase enough to pay for the annual losses when they sell. While MLS may be inflating their loses for CBA negotiation purposes, the fact that people are still investing in it is not very good evidence of that.
     
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  21. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How many of those business are 20 years old?
     
  22. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 5, 2008
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm late to the party. Nothing confirmed on the salary cap right? Just the rumored 15%?
     
  23. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    What you don't see is people throwing huge amounts of money at businesses that have been operating for more than 20 years and has have always been net losers for the whole time.

    Yes it is, if you look a little more carefully. A generic (in the sense of having no particular track record other than the league's) MLS franchise was worth about $5 million in 1996. It was worth <name your own price> in 2001 (when the league could not find a buyer for most of them, other than its current investors, at any price). They were worth about $10 million in 2004. Comparing that to latter day expansions, you get a graph that looks about like this:

    upload_2015-3-23_10-4-19.png

    Obviously, that's a bit notional, but you get the point--for the first decade of the league's existence, almost nothing; for the second, explosive growth.

    While it might be common for a start-up to receive an impressive amount of capital up front, on the hope it might make profit down the road, I submit you'll be looking long and hard for an analogue for what's happened here, which is a start-up existing for about a decade without being able to raise large amounts of capital, and then suddenly have capital flood in. The most straightforward explanation for this is that things began to change in a really positive way for the league somewhere in the mid 2000s.
     
  24. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    How about the 2013 biotech boom? That industry was hobbling along for many years and then suddenly money came rushing in.

    But getting back to MLS' turnaround, I think the turning point was earlier than you say. Contraction happened in Jan 2002, and by spring 2004, the reported franchise fee had shot up to $10M. I don't believe anything happened to make the league profitable in that time period, but it did manage to scale back its losses without losing much if any revenue. And the 2002 World Cup may have begun to change people's minds about soccer's potential.
     
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  25. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    Maybe, but it's certainly too soon to tell whether it sustains like MLS's has, and I would say there were a lot of pre-existing companies putting a lot of R&D into that, even before stock prices shot up.

    I use "mid-2000s" because I actually agree with that, at least in part. The first significant turning point is 2004 as to when some new investment came to the league. Supposedly the league cut its expenses by a third between 2000 and 2004 (obviously some of that was by reducing the roster of teams by a sixth, but it went further; when guys like Etcheverry, Valderrama and Nowak retired, they weren't really replaced during this period) and attendance did not plummet, as what you had left was a core of loyal fans that weren't going to ditch easily, something you could build upon given some time.

    That new incestment should already be taken as a sign that large scale losses were ebbing. Jorge Vergara can be perhaps be tossed aside as misguided and naive, but Stan Kroenke doesn't like losing money and doesn't do it very often, and Dave Checketts was actually the frontman for a capital group that he had to convince would realize returns on their investment. It was a while longer before new investment kicked into high gear, but it's at about that point when MLS teams became plausible investment opportunities that were worth owning.
     

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