Great Generations of Footballers from Countries or Regions

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Tom Stevens, Dec 30, 2014.

  1. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

    Celtic
    Scotland
    Jul 28, 2006
    Newcastle-Upon-Tyne
    Club:
    Celtic FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Scotland
    I'll try and get back to you on this when I get a bit of time @Tom Stevens
     
    Tom Stevens repped this.
  2. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Yes WC1990 were a disastrous WC ever in team playing style and quality.
    So Beckenbauer was right, there was no really "quality team" could macth his good and hardwork team ... in that WC
    (only if Maradona got better team squad? while Basten could maintain his form like in 88? Itlay90 were also very good team but more in defense than attack (to win games) similar to Brazil90)
     
  3. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    To the point of rating/ranking Scottish footballers, I came across the list of the top 50 Scottish footballers ever from the Herald in 2013. I would love some input from British posters or anyone else who has thoughts on the strengths/weaknesses of the rankings.

    1. Kenny Daglish (Celtic; Liverpool, 102 caps 1971-86)
    2. Denis Law (Manchester United, 55 caps 1958-74)
    3. Jimmy Johnstone (Celtic, 32 caps 1964-74)
    4. Dave Mackay (Hearts; Tottenham; Derby, 22 caps 1957-65)
    5. Jim Baxter (Rangers, 34 caps 1960-67)
    6. Graeme Souness (Middlesbrough; Liverpool, 54 caps 1974-86)
    7. Gordon Smith (Hibernian; Hearts; Dundee, 19 caps 1946-57)
    8. John Greig (Rangers, 44 caps 1964-75)
    9. Willie Woodburn (Rangers, 27 caps 1947-52)
    10. Billy McNeill (Celtic, 29 caps 1961-67)
    11. Alex James (Preston; Arsenal, 8 caps 1925-32)
    12. Bobby Murdoch (Celtic, 12 caps 1965-69)
    13. Billy Bremmer (Leeds, 54 caps 1965-76)
    14. Willie Waddell (Rangers, 18 caps 1946-1954)
    15. Danny McGrain (Celtic, 62 caps 1973-82)
    16. Alan Morton (Rangers, 30 caps 1920-32)
    17. Hughie Gallacher (Airdrieonians; Newcastle; Chelsea; Derby, 20 caps 1924-35)
    18. Jimmy McGrory (Celtic, 7 caps 1928-33)
    19. Sandy Jardine (Rangers; Hearts, 38 caps 1970-79)
    20. Bobby Lennox (Celtic, 10 caps 1966-70)
    21. Willie Miller (Aberdeen, 65 caps 1975-89)
    22. Alan Hansen (Liverpool, 26 caps 1979-87)
    23. Ian St John (Motherwell; Liverpool, 21 caps 1959-65)
    24. Gordon Strachan (Abredeen; Manchester United; Leeds, 50 caps 1980-92)
    25. George Young (Rangers, 54 caps 1946-57)
    26. Willie Bauld (Hearts, 3 caps 1950)
    27. Alex McLeish (Aberdeen, 77 caps 1980-93)
    28. Richard Gough (Dundee; Rangers, 61 caps 1983-93)
    29. Pat Crerand (Celtic; Manchester United, 16 caps 1961-65)
    30. Joe Jordan (Leeds; Manchester United, 52 caps 1973-82)
    31. Willie Henderson (Rangers, 29 caps 1962-71)
    32. Alan Gelzean (Dundee; Tottenham, 22 caps 1963-71)
    33. Tommy Gemell (Celtic, 18 caps 1966-71)
    34. Billy Steel (Derby; Dundee, 30 caps 1947-53)
    35. Andrew Watson (QPR, 3 caps 1881-82)
    36. Bertie Auld (Celtic, Birmingham, 3 caps 1959)
    37. Andy Goram (Oldham; Hibernian; Rangers, 43 caps 1985-98)
    38. Archie Gemmill (Preston; Derby; Nottingham; Birmingham, 43 caps 1971-81)
    39. Gordon McQueen (Leeds; Manchester United, 30 caps 1974-81)
    40. Eric Caldow (Rangers, 40 caps 1957-63)
    41. Ally McCoist (Rangers, 61 caps 1986-98)
    42. Paul McStay (Celtic, 76 caps 1983-97)
    43. John White (Tottenham, 22 caps 1959-64)
    44. John Roberton (Nottingham, 28 caps 1978-83)
    45. Pat Stanton (Hibernian, 16 caps 1966-74)
    46. Ronnie Simpson (Newcastle; Hibernian; Celtic, 5 caps 1967-68)
    47. Paul Lambert (St. Mirren; Motherwell; Dortmund; Celtic, 40 caps 1995-03)
    48. David Cooper (Rangers; Motherwell, 22 caps 1979-90)
    49. Derek Johnstone (Rangers, 14 caps 1973-79)
    50. Robert Smyth McColl (QPR; Newcastle; Rangers, 13 caps 1896-00)

    Players ranked by decade.

    1880s - 1
    1890s - 1
    1900s - 0
    1910s - 0
    1920s - 4
    1930s - 0
    1940s - 4
    1950s - 4
    1960s - 10
    1970s - 12
    1980s - 9
    1990s - 5

    Players ranked by club

    Rangers - 15
    Celtic - 13
    Manchester United - 5
    Liverpool - 4
    Hearts - 4
    Derby - 4
    Hibernian - 4
    Dundee - 4
    Leeds - 4
    Tottenham - 3
    Newcastle - 3
    Aberdeen - 3
    Motherwell - 3

    Things I found interesting. The lack of 1920s players. Scotland had a decent claim to being the best team in the world at this time and only four players on the list compared to 9 in the 80s and 5 in the 90s when they were miles from being a top team much less the best. Really big names from the 1920s like Alex Jackson and Davie Meiklejohn are left off.

    Overall the players I was most surprised at not making the list were Bobby Walker, Tommy Walker, Lawrie Reilly, Alex Jackson, Davie Meiklejohn, and Billy Liddell. I would have guessed them to be top 20 material.

    I was not under the impression that Gordon Smith was ranked so much higher than the rest of the Famous 5. Smith is ranked 7th while none of the others made the list, Reilly feels like the biggest miss out of the group.

    Also surprised to see Murdoch ahead of Bremmer. Archie Gemmill and Alan Hansen seems very underrated as well. Before looking through this list I was unaware that Hansen had so many difficulties getting caps behind Miller and McLeish. Were Miller and McLeish thought to be better than Hansen by most or were the selections thought to be strange?

    I was also unaware that Willie Woodburn was ranked so highly.
     
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  4. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    this lsit has danny mcgrain incredebly low ranked.. at least in my humble opnion..

    mcgrain should be 4 spots higher at least..

    in my opinion danny mcgrain is a top 10 rightback of all time.. incredible player

    also alan hansen shamefully low ranked.. but he was an un scottish un british player.. gracefull real good sweeper.. not what the british prefered and used to play themselves in those days..

    so the british cannot objectively rank certain players.. imo. hansen was a jewel in a tiem most british teams played still a form of kick and rush..
     
  5. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I agree on Hansen and McGrain being underrated.
     
  6. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Hansen interview:

    Who was the best player you came up against?

    Without a shadow of a doubt, Diego Maradona. I played against him at Hampden when he was 18 and he was amazing... He was virtually unplayable even at 18.

    http://metro.co.uk/2007/03/26/on-the-spot-alan-hansen-204559/

    By the way, why do you think Scotland failed at the WCs despite having Dalglish, Souness, Law and Hansen?
     
  7. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    law was a few years before the others you mentioned..

    and the answer is quite simple because many other teams where filled with even more great players also scotland and in a lesser waye ngland have been playign their own style for way to long..

    in the late 90's still many of the lower ranked english teams teams still played kinda kick and rush system.. logn balls etc etc.

    i mean lets face it scotland had dalglish, mcgrain, hansen, souness thats 4 very great players... but the rest was the team was quite average..

    i woudl also include in the 1970's martin buchan a very good defender.. but the rest of scottish team wasn't that great..

    where as for example in 1978 germany and holland, had a way better team..
    also france in 78 still a young squad but better then scotland. (batiston, bossis, tresor, platini, rocheatau, six..

    even poland 78 had a better squad then scotland..

    scotland was imo kinda like peru.. a few great players and a bunch of far lesser players
     
  8. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Scotland did beat the Netherlands at WC78, they were just a tad unlucky that they needed one more goal to advance and couldn't get it.

    I would also say Peru was more than just a few great players, they were also another team that the Netherlands could not beat and they topped the group ahead of them. Their squad included Cubillas, Cueto, Chumpitaz, Sotil, Velasquez, Oblitas, La Rosa, Munante, Rojas and Uribe.

    Their subsequent meltdown in the quarterfinal groups stage is indeed strange, and not just against Argentina.
     
  9. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    holland 78 wasn't an all tiem great team.. it had a few atg players but unlike the 74 team the 78 team wasn't an atg team..
    and even the 1974 team wasn't hollands best team.. rijsbergen normally wouldn't have been a starter...but 3 players who where way better then him where injured..

    but back to holland 1978.. the side included poortvliet and brandts.. they are not amongst hollands best ever defenders.. not by a logn shot.. again like in 74 holland played with jongbloed also not even a top 10 all time dutch goalie..

    also rep played striekr role.. rep was a great player but i would have prefered holland with a real striekr and rep on right wing..

    soem notable players way way better then several who replaced them who did not participate where cruyff, van hanegem, hovenkamp, willy van der kuilen, ruud geels, van beveren..etc etc
     
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  10. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    agree so ...
    Holland 78 were just a shadow of their own great form at WC74 (and worse lacking Cruyff's playmaker/conductor)

    At that WC Ressenbrinks Neekens and Krol did deserve a mention and that was it -
    I would not call Rep a "great" player. Rep was just like a Kuit = useful versatile FW who could attack and defense (matching well with Total football)

    You're right .... ONLY IF Holland 74 - 78 had strikers like Kluivert or Nistelrooy = great enough - no need of Basten nor Bergkamp calibre
     
  11. Rana catesbeiana

    Mar 11, 2008
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    As if Bergkamp is of higher calibre than Nistelrooy as a striker...
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Wrong. They needed two more goals after Rep scored the 3:2 in the 72th minute.
    http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/mar/18/world-cup-moments-scotland-1978-rollercoaster
    (check also the original report at the bottom of the page)

    Yes, it was a limited team with many of the key players not taking part or only half-heartedly participating.
    http://clubelo.com/1977/12/11.html
     
  13. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    for your info : he was ... not just higher but MUCH BETTER
    bergkamp was a great striker (>0.7gpg) for Ajax in his younger years 91-93 - besides his many assists (that Nistelrooy could never do)
     
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  14. Rana catesbeiana

    Mar 11, 2008
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I know Bergkamp was great, and out of these two I like him more. But I don't think you know how good Nistelrooy was.
     
  15. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #215 JamesBH11, Mar 14, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2015
    huh? are you talking of yourself? you usual SPECULATION never helps your argument

    I bet you NEVER knew and watched any games of Nistelrooy at Ajax ... in 90s?

    just a simple question... even at ManU (his best form in 2000's) tell me how many goals he scored from outside the box there? LOL
    if you ever watched him and DO NOT THINK ! this is a real question of FACT :cautious:
     
  16. Rana catesbeiana

    Mar 11, 2008
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    We didn't talk about them in specific clubs, we talked them as players. Though yeah, didn't watch Nistelrooy in Ajax in the 1990's too much. That would've required some arrangements I was not able to do. :rolleyes:
     
  17. Rana catesbeiana

    Mar 11, 2008
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I don't know how many goals he scored outside the box. Maybe someone does. I don't think striker's job is to score specifically outside the box, though, so I don't see how this matters. A goal is a goal.
     
  18. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    As a player Bergkamp was quite a bit better I feel. I thought you meant as a finisher and especially poacher that Van Nistelrooy was better and then I could agree. Or as a solo striker perhaps (Bergkamp did play that role well at times, and even in that role some of the aspects that make him a better player could be visible).

    It's not quite the same but it's on the same lines to saying Maradona was a better player than Batistuta but not as good a goalscorer I would say (like I say this comparison would be more undisputed I suppose, but as far as I know Bergkamp is thought of as the better PL player than Van Nistelrooy generally too).

    But for balance, my impression is also Rep>Kuyt - I think he had more class and was a smoother team player and also I'd say a better finisher at his best. Surely better in World Cups (especially 1978 I'd say). Not to put Kuyt down too much but I think Rep was a bit more of a footballer for sure.
     
  19. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #219 JamesBH11, Mar 14, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2015
    it just VALIDATED your knowledge of Nistelrooy (even at his best at ManU)
    so next time never challenge someone on something you do not even know!

    For your info: ONE

    Like PDG said" Nistelrooy was a great and "last" poacher we had seen in football games (not any more since last decade unfortunately)

    In skills: Bergkamp > Kluivert > Nistelrooy
    in poaching goals: Nistelrooy > Kluivert > bergkamp
     
  20. Rana catesbeiana

    Mar 11, 2008
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Do you know how many goals Pele scored outside the box in Santos? Like, since when is that knowledge crucial in knowing a player. I don't know that number for any single player and it means nothing. But I guess you couldn't be serious with that "argument" so whatever.

    At least I know Nistelrooy didn't play at Ajax.
     
  21. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    like you thinking.. with your IMAGINATIVE "KNOWING" kinda thing

    I know Messi > Pele ... even I never watched pele LOL

    or
    I know Messi is great at WC 14 ... ouff who cares if I don;t know how many goals he scored in KOS there ?LOL
     
  22. Rana catesbeiana

    Mar 11, 2008
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #222 Rana catesbeiana, Mar 14, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2015
    No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

    I'm saying that you don't need to know how many goals some player scored outside the box to know the player. Pele, for example: I know you know his game, although you can't answer to that question (without digging the number from somewhere). Likewise, me not being able to pop up the number out of my hat for Nistelrooy doesn't mean I don't know him.

    And again: goals are goals. Strikers' job: score goals. If you're scoring outside the box or a tap-in, they're worth the same. We didn't talk about who's the better scorer from outside the box.
     
  23. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #223 JamesBH11, Mar 14, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2015
    that's the same thing like you THINK you know Nistelrooy and that implies you THINK I do not know much of him!

    For your info: yes scoring gaols are FW/striker job. but the details you did NOT know is that most goals Nistelrooy scored was within 10+ yards out TAP INS and only ONE scoring long shot with a true good "shooting" skills... LOL

    So I rated Nistelrooy highly in the "category of GOAL POACHER" (vs the likes Vieri Crespo, Inzaghi , Diego COsta , Fred, Manjukick, Higuain ....
     
  24. Rana catesbeiana

    Mar 11, 2008
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    You rating Nistelrooy that lowly as a striker does, yes, make me think you don't really know him. Do I know him? Well, I can't pull a stat like outside the box out of my hat, but I've watched him enough to rate him highly. Either way, we disagree: you his as a striker Bergkamp is of higher calibre than him, I don't, so be it, end of story.
     
  25. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I am careless what you 'think" sorry ... that's how many many out there rated him ... not just myself !

    One thing for sure: I know more of Nistelrooy than you could do a research on

    He is a last great poacher in 2000's - yes ... and no more no less
     

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