Great Generations of Footballers from Countries or Regions

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Tom Stevens, Dec 30, 2014.

  1. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Next the Netherlands

    The earlier generations were hard to flesh out, as my perception was that the interwar and immediate post war teams had some great attacking talents but overall the quality of player was below most of Europe at this point. This seems to be supported by the national team results, high scoring with mixed outcomes.

    The first generation is the Bakhuys/Smit from 1904-1911, built around the most talented players of the inter war years.

    Finisher
    Bep Bakhuys
    Kick Smit
    Piet van Reenen
    Leen Vente
    Wim Lagendaal

    Creator
    Frank Wels
    Joop van Nellen
    Cor Kools

    Controller
    Puck van Heel
    Bas Paauwe
    Henk Pellikaan
    Sjef van Run

    Goalkeeper
    Gerrit Keizer
    Adri van Male

    The finishers are the strength led by two Dutch legends in Bakhuys and Smit, with support from Reenen who had an amazing club goalscoring record and Vente and Lagendaal who had excellent international goalscoring records. Other than Puck van Heel and Gerrit Keizer I do not know much about the other players other than their cap totals.
     
  2. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Next is the post war team that was again led by an excellent group of attackers but had mixed results for the national team. This can also be explained by the exodus of some top players from the national team at the time as they moved abroad to professional leagues.

    The Lenstra/Wilkes generation is from 1920 to 1927

    Finisher
    Abe Lenstra
    Faas Wilkes
    Coen Dillen
    André Roosenburg
    Noud van Melis
    Bram Appel
    Gé van Dijk

    Creator
    Kee Rijvers
    Bertus de Harder
    Theo Timmermans
    Joep Brandes
    Kees van der Tuijn

    Controller
    Jan van Schijndel
    Rinus Schaap
    Joop Stoffelen

    Defender
    Rinus Terlouw

    Goalkeeper
    Frans De Munck
    Piet Kraak

    The finishers are once again the strength (Although I am not sure if Wilkes was more of a creator than scorer) led by Lenstra and Wilkes. The depth behind them is excellent as well. The creators are improved with top players in Rijvers and de Harder present with good depth as well. Controllers and Defenders lack big names or depth. The best Dutch defender of this period was Cor van der Hart but he was born in 1928, and moving the generation one year younger would lose Lenstra and de Harder. Frans De Munck is thought of as one of the best Dutch keepers.
     
  3. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    There was an explosion of Dutch talent born in the 40s and late 50s that most of could be captured in one generation. Players from this group were central to four European Cups, two UEFA Cups and two World Cup finals appearances. The depth of top players at creator and controller is amazing as they are two of the best groups in history.

    The Cruyff/van Hanegem generation is from 1944-1951

    Finisher
    Willy van der Kuijlen
    Ruud Geels
    Willy Brokamp
    Jan Mulder
    Dick van Dijk

    Creator
    Johan Cruyff
    Rob Rensenbrink
    Gerrie Muhren
    Johnny Rep
    Arnold Mühren
    René van de Kerkhof
    Willy Dullens
    Jan Klijnjan
    Theo Pahlplatz
    Dick Nanninga

    Controller
    Willem van Hanegem
    Johan Neeskens
    Ruud Krol
    Wim Suurbier
    Arie Haan
    Wim Jansen
    Willy van de Kerkhof
    Theo de Jong

    Defender
    Barry Hulshoff
    Hugo Hovenkamp
    Epi Drost
    Jan Boskamp
    Aad Mansveld

    Goalkeeper
    Jan van Beveren
    Piet Schrijvers

    The finishers are relatively weak, but that is in part due to the exclusion of conventional center forwards from the national team in favor of multiple creative players that could also score goals as part of total football. I am also unsure of Willy van der Kuijlen's role. He has the goal scoring record of a finisher but is often described as more of creative player. The creators are one of the best groups in football history with all time great players an excellent depth. It is frightening to think that who many thought was the most talented player of the group, Willy Dullens, had his career ended very early due to injury. The controllers are one of, if not the greatest group in football history. Total football strengthened both the creator and controller groups at the expense of more specialized defenders and finishers. In addition to the great center midfielder depth and talent (van Hanegem, Neeskens, Haan, Jansen, van de Kerkhof) you add two great defenders who played controlling roles (Krol as a wingback and sweeper and Suurbier as a wingback) and you probably have the best group of controllers ever. The defender are weak for a number of reasons. First players detailed earlier who played defenders positions actually had roles in the team of controllers. Second two of the great defenders of this time were just outside the bounds of the generation (Rinus Israël 1942 and Wim Rijsbergen 1952). The goalkeepers are decent in talent and depth.
     
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  4. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    The next generation has excellent top end talent but lacks the depth of the previous group.

    The Van Basten/Rijkaard generation is from 1960 to 1967

    Finisher
    Marco Van Basten
    Wim Kieft
    John Bosman

    Creator
    Ruud Gullit
    Gerald Vanenburg
    Wim Jonk
    John van 't Schip
    Hans Gillhaus

    Controller
    Frank Rijkaard
    Jan Wouters
    Aron Winter
    Erwin Koeman
    Rob Witschge

    Defender
    Ronald Koeman
    Danny Blind
    Berry van Aerle
    Graeme Rutjes
    Stan Valckx

    Goalkeeper
    Ed de Goey
    Ruud Hesp
    Stanley Menzo
    Theo Snelders

    Every outfield position has one all time great player present. There is decent depth at creator, controller, and defender as well. There is good depth at goalkeeper but no truly world class player.
     
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  5. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    The final Dutch generation I will detail is the group centered around the great Ajax 1995 team and the highly competitive national teams in the late 90s and early 2000s. This group has excellent depth and top end talent.

    The Bergkamp/Davids generation is from 1969 to 1976

    Finisher
    Ruud van Nistelrooy
    Patrick Kluivert
    Roy Makaay
    Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink
    Pierre van Hooijdonk

    Creator
    Dennis Bergkamp
    Ronald de Boer
    Marc Overmars
    Boudewijn Zenden
    Bryan Roy

    Controller
    Edgar Davids
    Clarence Seedorf
    Phillip Cocu
    Richard Witschge
    Giovanni van Bronckhorst
    Paul Bosvelt

    Defender
    Frank de Boer
    Jaap Stam
    Michael Reiziger
    Arthur Numan
    André Ooijer
    Winston Bogarde

    Goalkeeper
    Edwin van der Sar

    This group has no real weaknesses. All the outfield groups have top and talent (van Nistelrooy, Bergkamp, Davids, Seedorf, de Boer, and Stam) as well as good depth behind (Kluivert, Makaay, de Boer, Overmars, Cocu, Reiziger etc). They also have maybe their first truly world class goalkeeper.
     
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  6. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Great post but many questions for discussion. First of all, why is Van Hanegem's name in the generation ahead of Neeskens, the creative artist? Also, do many really seriously think Dullens was more talented than Cruyff? I feel this is just the usual folk tale for players whose career ends early. Finally, why are Krol and Suurbier not listed in the defenders group?
     
  7. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    The only Dutch generation that could beat West Germany/Germany in an official tournament, they did it two times actually (Euros 88 and 92). You are correct they lacked depth but their top four players (Van Basten, Gullit, Rikjaard, Koeman) are better overall than the top four for any of the other generations, including the 70s in my opinion (Cruyff, Neeskens, Krol, Rep). Comparing them side by side based on role:

    Cruyff > Van Basten
    Rep < Gullit
    Neeskens = Rikjaard
    Krol < Koeman

    @Tom Stevens @Puck @greatstriker11 @tony-soprano37
     
  8. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Krol was among the rare talented DF (a la Thuram Maldini style) > Koeman (just another brick in the wall)
     
  9. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    You are just plain wrong about Koeman to describe him that way.
     
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  10. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    If Krol was like Maldini/Thuram, then Koeman was like Canavaro/Desailly

    Krol was very very talented with ball skills, dribbling, passing and reading games > Koeman very good in defense, and great with setpieces, and super great in long shot!
     
  11. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Koeman was also superb in bring play up from the defense, he was fantastic at both Euro88 and WC94 for example.
     
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  12. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

    Apr 19, 2013
    london
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Koeman was not that bad.

    he was key for PSV, Barca and Dutch NT for many years.

    scored many clutch winning goals for Barca in "big games", including UCL title goal in 1992!

    Without Koeman, Cruyff's Dream Team would have not been so successful

    @Pipiolo
     
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  13. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Completely agree, Koeman was in the style of Beckenbauer, Passarella, Scirea, a sweeper of incredible technique.
     
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  14. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I did not say he was bad- Koeman was indeed among a rare DF with attacking fear to opponents
    But Krol was a bit more skillful (as among the DF category)

    Let's hear from Puck
     
  15. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #140 JamesBH11, Jan 19, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2015
    NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

    Koeman was a stopper type (more like Desailly or Canavaro) not a Libero type like Beck or Baresi or Scirea Passarella.

    As Fullback, Krol was surely in TOP10 best LB all time
    As CB: Krol was in TOP25 all time

    Koeman was also in TOP25 CB all time ...

    See the difference? Krol ~ Maldini/Thuram and Koeman ~ Canavaro /Desailly
     
  16. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    @JamesBH11 - if Koeman was more a Cannavaro/Desailly style of defender, how come he scored so many goals and gathered so many assists during his career? Please don't say the goals were just from pk's or free kicks, at Barcelona Stoichkov took as many free kicks and penalties, plus Laudrup took some himself.
     
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  17. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    anyway they both would feature in my Best XI Hollandais all time
    Formation 3 1 3 1 2 ( a la Argentina style)

    -------------------------------- Basten -----------
    ------- Bergkamp--------------------------------
    ---------------------- Cruyff ----------------------
    ----- Neeskens --- Hanegem ---- Gullit ----
    --------------------- Rijkaard ---------------------
    -----R Krol ------- Koeman ---- Surbier ------
    -------------------- V Bevereen-------------------
     
  18. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    First I would sub Rensenbrink for Rep.

    I would say

    Cryuff > Van Basten
    Rensenbrink < Gullit
    Neeskens or Van Hanegem < Rijkaard
    Krol > Koeman

    Obviously they are all great players but for me Krol > Koeman was one of the easier decisions. I just think he has a better body of work, more top international performances is the main place Krol distances himself from Koeman. They both had great club careers.
     
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  19. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I personally rate Van Hanegem slightly ahead of Neeskens. Van Hanegem was the top player for Feyenoord leading them to the European Cup, UEFA Cup and winning the dutch league head to head versus Ajax a number of times. Although they had different roles/styles he was the focal point of his team the way Cryuff was Ajax. He ran the midfield, was the chief creative player, and put up good goalscoring totals. Neeskens had a better WC 1974 and was a great player in his own right but he was never the focal point of great team the way Van Hanegem was. Also I have never heard Neeskens described as a creative artist, I always saw him as a powerful energetic player with good skill, but not a player who first comes to mind as creative or an artist.

    I somewhat agree with your point about players whose careers end early are overly glorified, but I was shocked at how highly Dulllens was rated by Dutch journalists in Puck's top 100 Dutch players thread.

    Krol and Suurbier played defenders by position but that was not their role (See the thread I linked to in the first post about roles vs positions). The total football system had both of the play and aggressive pressing system where they could pop up all over the field and interchange positions relatively freely. Neither spent large parts of the game winning defensive headers or closely marking opposing strikers. They used their energy, positioning, and skill the control the flow of the game. Comparable in role for other countries would be a fullback like Cafu whose job the to control a whole side of the pitch with his energy. Krol as a sweeper seemed to me to be closer in role to Beckenbauer, preforming many tasks midfielders often do, as oppose to a defensive sweeper like Blind.
     
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  20. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

    Apr 19, 2013
    london
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I see

    but why say he was a "another brick on the wall"?

    that would confuse the reader and make them think you mean he was useless.:whistling:
     
  21. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

    Apr 19, 2013
    london
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    @JamesBH11 have you seen any defender you mentioned score on the move from half line like this?

    Champions League Barca vs Porto!

     
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  22. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Rankings

    Finisher
    1) Bergkamp/Davids
    2) Lenstra/Wilkes
    3) Van Basten/Rijkaard
    4) Bakhuys/Smit
    5) Cruyff/van Hanegem

    Creator
    1) Cruyff/van Hanegem
    2) Bergkamp/Davids
    3) Van Basten/Rijkaard
    4) Lenstra/Wilkes
    5) Bakhuys/Smit

    Controller
    1) Cruyff/van Hanegem
    2) Van Basten/Rijkaard
    3) Bergkamp/Davids
    4) Bakhuys/Smit
    5) Lenstra/Wilkes

    Defender
    1) Bergkamp/Davids
    2) Van Basten/Rijkaard
    3) Cruyff/van Hanegem
    4) Lenstra/Wilkes
    5) Bakhuys/Smit

    Goalkeeper
    1) Bergkamp/Davids
    2) Cruyff/van Hanegem
    3) Lenstra/Wilkes
    4) Bakhuys/Smit
    5) Van Basten/Rijkaard

    Overall
    1) Cruyff/van Hanegem
    2) Bergkamp/Davids
    3) Van Basten/Rijkaard
    4) Lenstra/Wilkes
    5) Bakhuys/Smit

    Bergkamp/Davids had the best average position/role ranking but I moved them to #2 as Cryuff's generation had more high quality players overall, they were just all stacked in two groups.
     
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  23. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

    Apr 19, 2013
    london
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    What about Reiziger?

    @Pipiolo
     
  24. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Good player but don't think he was quite elite. Should be included in the Bergkamp/Davids generation though.
     
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  25. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    agree ,,. I woukld say far from being called elite LOL
     

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