Next the Netherlands The earlier generations were hard to flesh out, as my perception was that the interwar and immediate post war teams had some great attacking talents but overall the quality of player was below most of Europe at this point. This seems to be supported by the national team results, high scoring with mixed outcomes. The first generation is the Bakhuys/Smit from 1904-1911, built around the most talented players of the inter war years. Finisher Bep Bakhuys Kick Smit Piet van Reenen Leen Vente Wim Lagendaal Creator Frank Wels Joop van Nellen Cor Kools Controller Puck van Heel Bas Paauwe Henk Pellikaan Sjef van Run Goalkeeper Gerrit Keizer Adri van Male The finishers are the strength led by two Dutch legends in Bakhuys and Smit, with support from Reenen who had an amazing club goalscoring record and Vente and Lagendaal who had excellent international goalscoring records. Other than Puck van Heel and Gerrit Keizer I do not know much about the other players other than their cap totals.
Next is the post war team that was again led by an excellent group of attackers but had mixed results for the national team. This can also be explained by the exodus of some top players from the national team at the time as they moved abroad to professional leagues. The Lenstra/Wilkes generation is from 1920 to 1927 Finisher Abe Lenstra Faas Wilkes Coen Dillen André Roosenburg Noud van Melis Bram Appel Gé van Dijk Creator Kee Rijvers Bertus de Harder Theo Timmermans Joep Brandes Kees van der Tuijn Controller Jan van Schijndel Rinus Schaap Joop Stoffelen Defender Rinus Terlouw Goalkeeper Frans De Munck Piet Kraak The finishers are once again the strength (Although I am not sure if Wilkes was more of a creator than scorer) led by Lenstra and Wilkes. The depth behind them is excellent as well. The creators are improved with top players in Rijvers and de Harder present with good depth as well. Controllers and Defenders lack big names or depth. The best Dutch defender of this period was Cor van der Hart but he was born in 1928, and moving the generation one year younger would lose Lenstra and de Harder. Frans De Munck is thought of as one of the best Dutch keepers.
There was an explosion of Dutch talent born in the 40s and late 50s that most of could be captured in one generation. Players from this group were central to four European Cups, two UEFA Cups and two World Cup finals appearances. The depth of top players at creator and controller is amazing as they are two of the best groups in history. The Cruyff/van Hanegem generation is from 1944-1951 Finisher Willy van der Kuijlen Ruud Geels Willy Brokamp Jan Mulder Dick van Dijk Creator Johan Cruyff Rob Rensenbrink Gerrie Muhren Johnny Rep Arnold Mühren René van de Kerkhof Willy Dullens Jan Klijnjan Theo Pahlplatz Dick Nanninga Controller Willem van Hanegem Johan Neeskens Ruud Krol Wim Suurbier Arie Haan Wim Jansen Willy van de Kerkhof Theo de Jong Defender Barry Hulshoff Hugo Hovenkamp Epi Drost Jan Boskamp Aad Mansveld Goalkeeper Jan van Beveren Piet Schrijvers The finishers are relatively weak, but that is in part due to the exclusion of conventional center forwards from the national team in favor of multiple creative players that could also score goals as part of total football. I am also unsure of Willy van der Kuijlen's role. He has the goal scoring record of a finisher but is often described as more of creative player. The creators are one of the best groups in football history with all time great players an excellent depth. It is frightening to think that who many thought was the most talented player of the group, Willy Dullens, had his career ended very early due to injury. The controllers are one of, if not the greatest group in football history. Total football strengthened both the creator and controller groups at the expense of more specialized defenders and finishers. In addition to the great center midfielder depth and talent (van Hanegem, Neeskens, Haan, Jansen, van de Kerkhof) you add two great defenders who played controlling roles (Krol as a wingback and sweeper and Suurbier as a wingback) and you probably have the best group of controllers ever. The defender are weak for a number of reasons. First players detailed earlier who played defenders positions actually had roles in the team of controllers. Second two of the great defenders of this time were just outside the bounds of the generation (Rinus Israël 1942 and Wim Rijsbergen 1952). The goalkeepers are decent in talent and depth.
The next generation has excellent top end talent but lacks the depth of the previous group. The Van Basten/Rijkaard generation is from 1960 to 1967 Finisher Marco Van Basten Wim Kieft John Bosman Creator Ruud Gullit Gerald Vanenburg Wim Jonk John van 't Schip Hans Gillhaus Controller Frank Rijkaard Jan Wouters Aron Winter Erwin Koeman Rob Witschge Defender Ronald Koeman Danny Blind Berry van Aerle Graeme Rutjes Stan Valckx Goalkeeper Ed de Goey Ruud Hesp Stanley Menzo Theo Snelders Every outfield position has one all time great player present. There is decent depth at creator, controller, and defender as well. There is good depth at goalkeeper but no truly world class player.
The final Dutch generation I will detail is the group centered around the great Ajax 1995 team and the highly competitive national teams in the late 90s and early 2000s. This group has excellent depth and top end talent. The Bergkamp/Davids generation is from 1969 to 1976 Finisher Ruud van Nistelrooy Patrick Kluivert Roy Makaay Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink Pierre van Hooijdonk Creator Dennis Bergkamp Ronald de Boer Marc Overmars Boudewijn Zenden Bryan Roy Controller Edgar Davids Clarence Seedorf Phillip Cocu Richard Witschge Giovanni van Bronckhorst Paul Bosvelt Defender Frank de Boer Jaap Stam Michael Reiziger Arthur Numan André Ooijer Winston Bogarde Goalkeeper Edwin van der Sar This group has no real weaknesses. All the outfield groups have top and talent (van Nistelrooy, Bergkamp, Davids, Seedorf, de Boer, and Stam) as well as good depth behind (Kluivert, Makaay, de Boer, Overmars, Cocu, Reiziger etc). They also have maybe their first truly world class goalkeeper.
Great post but many questions for discussion. First of all, why is Van Hanegem's name in the generation ahead of Neeskens, the creative artist? Also, do many really seriously think Dullens was more talented than Cruyff? I feel this is just the usual folk tale for players whose career ends early. Finally, why are Krol and Suurbier not listed in the defenders group?
The only Dutch generation that could beat West Germany/Germany in an official tournament, they did it two times actually (Euros 88 and 92). You are correct they lacked depth but their top four players (Van Basten, Gullit, Rikjaard, Koeman) are better overall than the top four for any of the other generations, including the 70s in my opinion (Cruyff, Neeskens, Krol, Rep). Comparing them side by side based on role: Cruyff > Van Basten Rep < Gullit Neeskens = Rikjaard Krol < Koeman @Tom Stevens @Puck @greatstriker11 @tony-soprano37
Krol was among the rare talented DF (a la Thuram Maldini style) > Koeman (just another brick in the wall)
If Krol was like Maldini/Thuram, then Koeman was like Canavaro/Desailly Krol was very very talented with ball skills, dribbling, passing and reading games > Koeman very good in defense, and great with setpieces, and super great in long shot!
Koeman was also superb in bring play up from the defense, he was fantastic at both Euro88 and WC94 for example.
Koeman was not that bad. he was key for PSV, Barca and Dutch NT for many years. scored many clutch winning goals for Barca in "big games", including UCL title goal in 1992! Without Koeman, Cruyff's Dream Team would have not been so successful @Pipiolo
Completely agree, Koeman was in the style of Beckenbauer, Passarella, Scirea, a sweeper of incredible technique.
I did not say he was bad- Koeman was indeed among a rare DF with attacking fear to opponents But Krol was a bit more skillful (as among the DF category) Let's hear from Puck
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO Koeman was a stopper type (more like Desailly or Canavaro) not a Libero type like Beck or Baresi or Scirea Passarella. As Fullback, Krol was surely in TOP10 best LB all time As CB: Krol was in TOP25 all time Koeman was also in TOP25 CB all time ... See the difference? Krol ~ Maldini/Thuram and Koeman ~ Canavaro /Desailly
@JamesBH11 - if Koeman was more a Cannavaro/Desailly style of defender, how come he scored so many goals and gathered so many assists during his career? Please don't say the goals were just from pk's or free kicks, at Barcelona Stoichkov took as many free kicks and penalties, plus Laudrup took some himself.
anyway they both would feature in my Best XI Hollandais all time Formation 3 1 3 1 2 ( a la Argentina style) -------------------------------- Basten ----------- ------- Bergkamp-------------------------------- ---------------------- Cruyff ---------------------- ----- Neeskens --- Hanegem ---- Gullit ---- --------------------- Rijkaard --------------------- -----R Krol ------- Koeman ---- Surbier ------ -------------------- V Bevereen-------------------
First I would sub Rensenbrink for Rep. I would say Cryuff > Van Basten Rensenbrink < Gullit Neeskens or Van Hanegem < Rijkaard Krol > Koeman Obviously they are all great players but for me Krol > Koeman was one of the easier decisions. I just think he has a better body of work, more top international performances is the main place Krol distances himself from Koeman. They both had great club careers.
I personally rate Van Hanegem slightly ahead of Neeskens. Van Hanegem was the top player for Feyenoord leading them to the European Cup, UEFA Cup and winning the dutch league head to head versus Ajax a number of times. Although they had different roles/styles he was the focal point of his team the way Cryuff was Ajax. He ran the midfield, was the chief creative player, and put up good goalscoring totals. Neeskens had a better WC 1974 and was a great player in his own right but he was never the focal point of great team the way Van Hanegem was. Also I have never heard Neeskens described as a creative artist, I always saw him as a powerful energetic player with good skill, but not a player who first comes to mind as creative or an artist. I somewhat agree with your point about players whose careers end early are overly glorified, but I was shocked at how highly Dulllens was rated by Dutch journalists in Puck's top 100 Dutch players thread. Krol and Suurbier played defenders by position but that was not their role (See the thread I linked to in the first post about roles vs positions). The total football system had both of the play and aggressive pressing system where they could pop up all over the field and interchange positions relatively freely. Neither spent large parts of the game winning defensive headers or closely marking opposing strikers. They used their energy, positioning, and skill the control the flow of the game. Comparable in role for other countries would be a fullback like Cafu whose job the to control a whole side of the pitch with his energy. Krol as a sweeper seemed to me to be closer in role to Beckenbauer, preforming many tasks midfielders often do, as oppose to a defensive sweeper like Blind.
I see but why say he was a "another brick on the wall"? that would confuse the reader and make them think you mean he was useless.
@JamesBH11 have you seen any defender you mentioned score on the move from half line like this? Champions League Barca vs Porto!
Rankings Finisher 1) Bergkamp/Davids 2) Lenstra/Wilkes 3) Van Basten/Rijkaard 4) Bakhuys/Smit 5) Cruyff/van Hanegem Creator 1) Cruyff/van Hanegem 2) Bergkamp/Davids 3) Van Basten/Rijkaard 4) Lenstra/Wilkes 5) Bakhuys/Smit Controller 1) Cruyff/van Hanegem 2) Van Basten/Rijkaard 3) Bergkamp/Davids 4) Bakhuys/Smit 5) Lenstra/Wilkes Defender 1) Bergkamp/Davids 2) Van Basten/Rijkaard 3) Cruyff/van Hanegem 4) Lenstra/Wilkes 5) Bakhuys/Smit Goalkeeper 1) Bergkamp/Davids 2) Cruyff/van Hanegem 3) Lenstra/Wilkes 4) Bakhuys/Smit 5) Van Basten/Rijkaard Overall 1) Cruyff/van Hanegem 2) Bergkamp/Davids 3) Van Basten/Rijkaard 4) Lenstra/Wilkes 5) Bakhuys/Smit Bergkamp/Davids had the best average position/role ranking but I moved them to #2 as Cryuff's generation had more high quality players overall, they were just all stacked in two groups.
Good player but don't think he was quite elite. Should be included in the Bergkamp/Davids generation though.