That's a very good point but maybe it might be said that this was an issue until the early to mid 90s. For example: when England was arguably the #1 league in the late 70s and early 80s they had absolutely a few horrible football grounds. Most notoriously the Baseball Ground of Derby County. What's often left out of history narratives is that with the refurbishing of the stadiums also the pitches received generally an upgrade (there was also more money ofc). In the Italy of late 80s many stadiums were preparing for the 1990 World Cup. It was the best league of the world but many pitches were downright poor as a result of that. Even at the 1990WC itself the pitch condition and composition of the grass and soil varied. Euro92 being another good example. Very wobbly and inaccurate grass (the Denmark-Netherlands semi final); you can clearly see it when teams tried ground-passes. And very beneficial for physical, defensive play. The last time I can remember where I thought 'this is a scandal' was the 2008 UCL final (Chelsea - Man United). Where grass was laid over artificial turf in Moscow. As a result, none of the active players could show their best. Moscow/Russia just paid loads of bucks to the UEFA.
Well, around the time of the World Cup I made this video and placed Pele's goal vs Mexico 9th and Maradona's vs England 3rd. But it is very subjective, and also I'd be pretty undecided on the order of the top 10 really (can fully understand Maradona's being number 1 but also maybe his goal vs Belgium, or Pele's vs Mexico being listed higher; as it was I chose Pele's goal vs Sweden as his 'best' though): Maradona vs England was never close to being dispossessed with the only touch by an English player being maybe Butcher just as the goal is scored. His spin adds to the goal, and he glides past a few players including the goalkeeper. Pele needs to incorporate a block tackle but it could be said that adds to the goal in a way, though it does mean it's not a continuous dribble. His final shot, on his weaker side after making space by avoiding players, is a harder one to be fair though. And the comment on the Pele vs Mexico 1962 video is interesting (but from a big Pele fan ofc): "This the only autopass in heavy traffic you'll ever see. Don;'t look for, it, as none exists. There are a million cases of great players attempting auto passes when there's only one defender between him and the goalie, or when your advance will take you to the side of the pitch. Pele, , standing for a millisecond on the far side of the pitch, just saw a hole, where no player stood, so he went for it," By Autopass, he refers to playing the ball into the vacant space which definitely was bright thinking and opened up the possibility to score. An example of genius by young Pele (just like the goal vs Sweden in 1958) arguably.
Regarding 'nonchalant' - and that Pelé purportedly did things that you'd never see Maradona doing, I suppose it depends on how you observe it. This was uploaded two days ago: [it's at a channel by a huge Maradona fan so maybe it doesn't even show all touches and actions..] No doubt there are a few good scenes there, but also a few 'nonchalant' ones I'd say. For example the scene at 4:20, where his team defends a corner kick situation. That is also pretty careless what he does there. 5:30 is possibly also a pretty nonchalant move, and how he deals with a rebound at 2:05.
EDIT: the idea that he never had a 'bad' touch (unlike Pelé) can be redirected to the garbage can too; see the touch at 5:10 that bounces a bit away from his foot.
I agree, except to say that even in the video of Pele vs Mexico above, I had seen a few bad touches by Pele himself. Fact is that there is not one single player ever existed that can claim to have not had bad touches. Any poster who pretends that their idol, be that Pele or Maradona or Messi are 100% complete are being delusional. Plain simple.
What does it matter that he worked in textiles in his youth ? Mexico's results in the WC don't make it look like they were an amateur team. The lengths you will go to make it look like Pele' played mostly against amateurs is ridiculous.
if one watched both, so clear Maradona never did steps over, hocuspocus, Ronaldo's chop ... or Pele trade mark of "the hat move and run around move" - or did he? this is fact, nothing to do with the way one observe. however that did not mean Pele is "nonchalant" in that sense, Pele is no Saint on the pitch- and Maradona was just worse (in term of nonchalant)
that's the only weak defending for Messi's fan, who often are denial to accept the fact: Messi kept on failing one copa/WC to another, while Pele never failed 1- Mexico were ranked #11-16 before WC62 (similar to Portugal of CR7 now, and France of Benzama) 2- I gave another example where Pele did at least 3 dribble runs with one ended up a goal, and another with a nice cross to Coutinho to destroy Benfica (UCL champs) in 1962 intercont cup. Benfica were #1 in 62
Has anyone expressed that idea? I've not seen it. As far as nonchalance is concerned there is quite a difference between fancy flicks and juggling, and literally doing nothing with the ball as pele appeared to often do for reasons unbeknownst to me.
It shows, how many players back then had also to work in addition playing football, many of them were farmers and so on. Pele however was a fully professional footballer, which was the relation portrayed in the original post. Doesn't matter, results can't be justified not having half amateur players. I like how instead of arguing against a logical and truthful view, you always go personal, which just shows how you're just a fanboy who likes myths, and will never accept anything which logically go against them. You're just like James.
Maximum wage for English league player in 1960 was 20£/week, which was less than minimum wage (21£/week) for a journalist at the same time. Surely you don't have to be a Bada Bing to make logical conclusions from such relations.
Doesn't matter, the difference is also in youth football, there were no such youth academies as today which helped players in everything they need. Even as adults, players had to work in addition playing, which in the 60's were still the majority of footballers I think.
wrong Messi inherit Barca Youth system of best training in equipment method and especially medical treatment for his "slow growth" If Messi was born in the 40's like Pele, what he will become for training with a grapefruit, and bare feet? Messi would be a dwarf forever!
not the same thing at all. He had defenders on his back hounding him in all those clips and showed good control
Not really in case of the poor touch. He wasn't taken off balance. How would you call this example at 3:08? Except that he isn't dispossessed from the back (like Pelé) this looks pretty similar to me. If I search further I'm sure it is eventually possible to find wasteful dispossessions. This is even true for Messi by the way: when he set the record in 2011-12 no other La Liga played lost the ball as often as he did. Pelé didn't in those clips?
Yeah that was a sloppy move by him at 3:08 indeed, and i'm sure he had other sloppy moments in his career, but this was in 90-91 one of his worst years. Ive seen Pele walking with the ball and someone just take it from him in his prime 1962, 1961. I'll try to find the clip and examples of what im talking about
Ha! In trying to find videos to prove you wrong I stumbled across this video of Maradona in 1984 (his best years some would say) and proved myself wrong @PuckVanHeel look at minute 2:43 I think what I say still stands though, that Maradona had neater control and more sense of urgency than Pele
it's funny that some of you use one clip to prove one player is betetr or worse than the other? It's so bad that not all Maradona's best moves were available, and much less for Pele ... The best years of Maradona were 80 -82
No i'm basing it off of the 15 or so games of Pele that are available, that his dribble wasn't as clean as Maradona's, not who was a better player. But that beats basing an opinion off of Bleacher Report right?
yeah 15 out of 1000 that said everything Maradona moves were not cleaner than Pele to the least, but we can say Maradona moves (similar to R9 at at his best) was so powerful ... If we could have all games available for those greats, I would tend to say Garrincha has the most "beating DF" runs then Pele then Maradona, then Messi (again in term of number of beating DF runs). Now the question is does that determine who is better dribbler? its all up to people's point of view. However Maradona did have the best ball control (to my view) that combined with his great acceleration = arguably the best dribbler (along with Garrincha). ====================================================== For me to determine a great (or greatest dribbler) a player should have: 1- Great ball control 2- Great techniques (plus tricks) in moving the ball at his feet 3- Great acceleration (plus speed if possible) 4- Great sense of tactics (to read opponent games in defense and move the ball to right direction) 5- Great vision of the game (to know when to beat DF and when to pass the ball)
First I said Maradona dribble runs were "powerful" like R9 (at fukll speed and straight at DF zone) ,not the style! Of course Maradona never did steps over, Elastico, Hocuspocus ... like R9 - but R9 did do 360 Maradona LOL I watched much more than 15 clips (of Pele) and a few (3,4)of Garrincha available on you tube
Here one can find one (available on top of the one vs Mexico 62 and Benfica 62) out of 100's of Pele dribbling passed 4,5 players Again, one can see Pele run was so clean and subtle, not (always) relied on speed + techniques (= powerful) like Maradona or R9