Classifying players by role/function not position

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Tom Stevens, Jul 28, 2014.

  1. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I can't count the number of threads on these forums that get derailed by discussions of what 'position' a player occupied (Is he a 'false 9' or a 'number 10' or a 'second striker' or an 'modern day inside forward' or a 'trequartista' or an 'attacking midfielder' or a 'ponta de lança'). Different football cultures have different names for the same positions, then things get even more confusing when people try to make numbers into positions. The same names also mean different things to different football cultures. I propose that we identify outfield players by their roles/functions in the team as oppose to a position in an effort to make things more clear. I would like to try to enlist the forums help in identifying all the different roles a player can have in the simplest and broadest sense. To me there are a few very clear roles that stand out. Now almost all players will preform more than one role in a team, the best players preform multiple functions at a very high level, e.g. create chances, finish chances, dictate that pace of the game etc. I would content that almost all players have a primary function despite doing multiple things. Cruyff for example finished chances often getting in the box and scoring on headers and rebounds etc, he also dictated the pace of the game by dropping deep and working short passes or winning the ball back with tackles. Despite these important roles I would argue his clear primary role in the team was to create chances with his dribbling and passing.

    Roles

    Finisher: This is self explanatory, the primary role of these players are to finish chances created by other players. This is not just goals either. For a modern example I am familiar with look at Theo Walcott. He has strong assist numbers for Arsenal but I would not count many if any of those assists 'chances created'. Walcott is usually released by a through ball (the chance created) and Walcott either goes for goal or squares a simple ball to an arriving midfielder who scores the chance. In this scenario Walcott and the arriving midfielder are both finishing the chance while the midfielder who played the through ball created it. Another player I would categorize as a finisher despite player at 'wide-forward' is Cristiano Ronaldo at Real Madrid. At Man U he was much closer to a 50-50 split between chance creation and chance finishing. At Real he is the teams primary finisher of attacking moves. Other obvious historic players can be ranked here like Muller, Kocsis, Romario, etc etc.

    Chance Creator: Their primary role is to create a goalscoring chance where there was none before. This can be done primarily by dribbling past an opponent or making a key pass that puts a teammate in a position to score a goal or threaten the goal. Many times a player finishes a chance he creates (i.e. a player receives the ball outside the box where there is no apparent danger and then dribbles through multiple players, creating the chance, and then scores himself, finishing the chance) which somewhat complicate classifying them if they do this very often (e.g. Messi). Some players are pure chance creators like old school wingers Garrincha and Matthews. Cruyff and Maradona are both clearly chance creators but do some other things as well. Other players like Xavi straddle the line between creating chances and dictating the pace of the game, or Messi who straddles the line between and chance creator and finisher.

    Controller/Dictator: I can't come up with a good name for this role but it is a very common one played by most modern day midfielders and can be accomplished in a number of ways. Basically the player is attempting to control/dictate the pace of the game. This can be done by moving the ball with short passes and not allowing the other team possession (Xavi), releasing wingers and chance creators with long diagonal passes (Scholes/Pirlo), winning the ball back with aggressive tackling high up the pitch (Viera/Keane) or shielding defenders with midfield positioning and preventing opposing attacks from starting (Makalele) etc. This role encompasses most non attacking midfielders and Beckenbauer style sweepers imo. Some players are clearly and completely play this role ala Roy Keane and Edgar Davids who was strictly concerned with dictating the game with short passing, tacking, positioning, and energy. Other players were split pretty evenly between controlling/dictating and chance creation (Xavi, Didi, Scholes etc) and some a fairly evenly split between controlling/dictating and defending (Rijkaard).

    Defender: Their primary role is to stop opponents attacks from turning into goals. Man markers, Italian style sweepers, center backs, and some modern fullbacks (Maldini) all play this role. A full 100% defender would be someone like Jurgen Kohler or Jaap Stam. Players like Baresi and Moore both use their passing and technical skills and help control/dictate but they are clearly defenders. Other defenders, especially modern fullbacks and aggressive sweepers play straddle the line between multiple roles. Players like Krul were pretty even between dictating and defending. Some players like Roberto Carlos are almost a even split between defending and chance creation.

    Those are the four major roles/functions that jump out to me. They cross all time periods and all formations/tactics. There are always players finishing chances. creating chances, controlling/dictating and defending. The hardest position for me to pin down with one of these roles is the modern fullback. Are they jacks of all trades who do a little chance creating (crosses), a little controlling/dictating (using pace and energy and run up and down the whole flank tackling high up the field), and defending (marking winger etc) or are have they established a unique role where in modern times they now attempt to control a whole side of the pitch with their energy making runs up and down (although you could call this by definition a controller/dictator just operating on the sides of the pitch as oppose to through the middle).

    Is their a major role you think I have missed? Should more roles with more specifics make sense? I personally like the idea of having four major roles that every player can partake it. I will go through commie's top 5 at each position and assign roles based on percentages to help you guys get a better idea of how I envision these roles.

    "Strikers"

    1. Ferenc Puskas (Hungary) Finisher: 60% finisher, 40% chance creator. Early in has career he appeared to be closer to pure finisher. Once he began to play with Kocsis for club and country he moved to close to 50-50 finisher and creator with excellent passing and vision. At Real he transferred back to almost a pure finisher.

    2. Ronaldo (Brazil) Finisher: 65% finisher, 35% chance creator. Most of his chance creation was in his early days when he created many chances with his explosive dribbling, but even as a young player he never quite reached 50-50 creation and finishing. Later in his career he was 90% or so finishing.

    3. Gerd Muller (West Germany) Finisher: 95 finisher, 5% chance creator. Pure finisher. Did have some good assist numbers but many were really part of finishing a move as oppose to creating it.

    4. Eusebio (Portugal) Finisher: 65% finisher, 35% chance creator. Very similar to young Ronaldo imo. Primarily a scorer but created many chances with explosive dribbling.

    5. Marco Van Basten (Holland) Finisher: 70% finisher, 30% creator. Could create chances out of nothing with quick turns and good passing but primary role was always finishing.

    "Forwards"

    1. Pele (Brazil) Finisher: 55% finisher, 45% chance creator. He was a tough one. In his young days he created many chances with his dribbling and passing but to me his primary role was always scoring goals even if he had another player ahead of him. The 1970 version was probably a chance creator 60% and finisher 40% but as a whole I would but him as a finisher by an narrow margin.

    2. Johan Cruyff (Holland) Chance Creator: 60% chance creator, 30% finisher, 10% controller. Already discussed him upthread.

    3. Zico (Brazil) Chance Creator: 60% chance creator, 40% finisher. He was a great finisher and scored many goals but for me his primary role was still creating chances with his great passing and vision.

    4. Juan Alberto Schiaffino (Uruguay) Chance Creator: 80% chance creator, 20% finisher. Pretty close to a pure chance creator from what I have read.

    5. Matthias Sindelar (Austria) Chance Creator: 60% chance creator, 30% finisher, 10% controller. From what I have read he was primarily a creator despite playing center forward. Would drop deep to dictate sometimes, was know for his dribbling and long solo runs through the defense to score eye catching solo goals. Also a great passer. I imagine him having a similar role in the team to Cruyff.

    "Attacking Midfielder"

    1. Alfredo di Stefano (Argentina) Finisher: 45% finisher, 30% controller, 30% chance creator. Maybe the hardest player for me to classify. His role as a young player in Argentina was clearly to finish chances while the creation was left to the famous elder statesmen he played with. At Real his role was to do everything. He is very interesting and unique role at Real in my opnion, where his two biggest roles were finishing and controlling, as oppose to chance creation the common role of the attacking midfielder (Not saying he did not do this, but it was not his primary role). The main chance creator of the team from what I saw was Gento. A very common passage of play from was di Stefano winning the ball back in the midfield or receiving it from the back, then playing a few short passes and the getting the ball wide to Gento, who in turn beats a player with pace and gets in a cross. In the mean time di Stefano has charged into the box and heads in the cross or picks up a poor clearance and smashes it home. The combination of controller and finisher seems unique to me.

    2. Diego Maradona (Argentina) Chance Creator: 80% chance creator, 15% finisher, 5% controller. Clearly a primary chance creator, and maybe at his peak with the best ever at purely this role. Early in his career in Argentina was maybe up to 30% or 40% finisher.

    3. Michel Platini (France) Chance Creator: 70% chance creator, 20% finisher, 10% controller. Slightly more varied than Maradona but still clearly a chance creator. More of a finisher than Maradona because most of the time Maradona scored a goal he also created it with great dribbling, whereas Platini scored many "easier/opportunistic" goals by getting himself in the box and cleaning up rebounds or scoring headers.

    4. Bobby Charlton (England) Chance Creator: 40% chance creator, 35% controller, 25% finisher. A very well balanced player. Early in his career was a forward who was probably close to an even split between goalscoring and chance creation. Late in his career was a well rounded midfielder who scored goals, created chances, and was combative in the midfield.

    5. Ruud Gullit (Holland) Chance Creator: 50% chance creator, 35% finisher, 15% controller. Scored goals and created chances with great proficiency. Also would put in a shift in the midfield dropping deep and passing/tackling. At PSV more of a pure finisher/creator

    "Wingers" (combining left and right)

    1. Garrincha (Brazil) Chance Creator: 95% chance creator, 5% finisher. Could have gone 100% chance creator but he showed that in certain situations he can get in the box and score goals (1962 World Cup). Basically had one job for his teams dribble past players and get the ball in the box.

    2. George Best (Northern Ireland) Chance Creator: 65% chance creator, 30% finisher, 5% controller. A far more varied player than Garrincha. Closer in role to someone like Cruyff. Created tons of chances with his dribbling but getting in the box and scoring goals was an important part of his game as well. Also would drop deep and put in a shift trying to win the ball back and build up play.

    3. Paco Gento (Spain) Chance Creator: 80% chance creator 20% controller. Late in his career moved much more centrally and was involved in midfield play.

    4. Stanely Matthews (England) Chance Creator: 100% chance creator. Pure creator, was not interested in scoring, only dribbling and crossing.

    5. Zoltan Czibor (Hungary) Chance Creator: 75% chance creator, 25% finisher. Showed more finishing skills and desire to get in the box than many other wingers in WM or pyramid formations.

    "Defensive Midfielders"

    1. Jozsef Bozsik (Hungary) Controller: 70% controller, 30% chance creator. From what I have seem was largely focused on dictating pace and controlling the midfield. Also helped created chances.

    2. Lothar Matthaus (Germany) Controller: 60% controller, 20% chance creator, 10% finisher, 10% defender. Had different roles throughout his career but his predominant role was always to control the game. With Inter he was heavily involved in chance creation and finishing. Later he became a sweeper and defended far more.

    3. Jose Leandro Andrade (Uruguay) Controller: 70% controller, 20% defender, 10% chance creator. Guessing a bit here but from what I read controlled the midfield, and by definition of his position spent a fair amount of time marking opposing wingers. I am sure he created chances as well with his dribbling and passing.

    4. Ernst Orwirk (Austria) Controller: 90% controller, 5% defender, 5% chance creator. His nickname "Clockwork" exemplifies the role of controller. I do not think he spent a lot of time marking opponents or chance creating but not sure.

    5. Frank Rijkaard (Netherlands) Controller: 55% controller, 40% defender, 5% chance creator. A major part of his game was marking opponents best players, spent a fair amount of his career an out and out defender. Still mostly concerned with controlling the game imo.

    "Sweepers"

    1. Franz Beckenbauer (Germany) Controller: 70% controller, 15% chance creator, 15% defender. A classic controller for me dictating from the center of the pitch with his passing, whether playing as a midfielder or sweeper.

    2. Franco Baresi (Italy) Defender: 80% defender, 20% controller. Mainly concerned with defending but contributed to controlling with his passing.

    3. Daniel Passarella (Argentina) Defender: 60% defending, 20% controlling, 15% finishing, 5% chance creation. A defender who did a number of other things including getting in the box and scoring and controlling the game with with passing to support the attack.

    4. Gaetano Scirea (Italy) Defender: 90% defender, 10% controller. Very similar role to Baresi but slightly more conservative.

    5. Ruud Krol (Netherlands) Controller: 50% controller, 40% defender, 10% chance creator. Struggled with this one a little put the total football influence in his game caused him to spend a lot of time tackling high up the pitch and supporting the attack with his passing and positioning.

    "Center-backs"

    1. Bobby Moore (England) Defender: 70% defender, 20% controller, 10% chance creator. A true dedicated defender who supported the attack and chipped in with chance creation through his excellent passing.

    2. Jose Santamaria (Uruguay) Defender: 100% defender. From what I can gather was solely interested in defending.

    3. John Charles (Wales) Finisher: 55% finisher, 40% defender, 5% chance creator. Played most influential parts of his career as a dominant striker who chipped in a little chance creation. Also played central defender where he dominated in the air and would mark opponents top striker from the game. But even as a defender still focused on scoring on set pieces so I had that as his primary role looking at his who career. Unique overall.

    4. Marcel Desailly (France) Defender: 90% defender, 10% controller. Played some in the midfield but even then was mostly concerned with defensive duties (Man marking opponents, winning headers in defensive half etc).

    5. Karl-Heinz Forster (Germany) Defender: 100% defender. From what I can gather was solely interested in defending.

    Fullbacks (Right and left combined)

    1. Paolo Maldini (Italy) Defender: 90% defender, 10% controller. In his younger days would get higher up the pitch to support attack but no matter where he played he was always focused on defending.

    2. Djalma Santos (Brazil) Defender: 60% defender, 30% controller, 10% chance creator. A well rounded fullback who was still primarily an excellent defender. Getting up the pitch and supporting the attack/creating chances was important to him but not his primary role.

    3. Nilton Santos (Brazil) Defender: 70% defender, 25% controller, 5% chance creator. Similar to Djalma but from what I have read/seen slightly more conservative about getting forward. Also played more as a central defender as opposed to the new modern fullbacks role he and Djalma were creating.

    4. Cafu (Brazil) Controller: 50% controller, 35% defender, 15% chance creation. In my opinion his main role was to control a whole side of the pitch using his tackling, dribbling, passing, and most importantly endless energy. He also put some importance on defending and creating chances.

    5. Giacinto Facchetti Controller: 40% controller, 30% defender, 15% chance creator, 15% finisher. At Inter he developed a unique role at fullbacks, constantly pressing up the pitch and supporting the attack. Also created many chances and got in the box and scored a remarkable number of goals from open play for a defender. Did not neglect defensive duties and later in his career would use his defensive skills to become a sweeper.

    Overall I struggle with how to finally classify players. If I was going to do an all time ranking of "Chance Creators" I would be ranking Roberto Carlos (A fullback who I feel his primary role was to create chances) in the same group with Maradona and Cruyff. Would it make more sense to rank pure one role players together (players with 80% or more in one role) and then make separate categories for for players well balanced in a couple of roles? Let me know what you think of the idea.
     
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  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Some ideas:

    Zidane - 55% controller, 40% chance creator, 5%finisher?
    Neeskens - 70% controller, 10% chance creator, 10% finisher, 10% defender?
    Xavi - 70% controller, 25% chance creator, 5% finisher?
    Iniesta - 50% controller, 45% chance creator, 5% finisher?

    I'm thinking a decent proportion of Zidane's goals involved himself creating or finishing creating himself the chance.

    Hagi - 60% chance creator, 20% controller, 20% finisher?
    Hoddle - 70% chance creator, 20% controller, 10% finisher?
    Ardiles - 50% controller, 40% chance creator, 10% defender?
    M.Laudrup - 80% chance creator, 10% controller, 10% finisher?

    So I have the top group as controllers and the bottom group as chance creators overall I suppose...., but with some tight calls in the top group with pretty much dual role players.

    EDIT - Ardiles is down as more of a controller of course despite being listed in the bottom group.
     
  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Moving forwards a bit (although Laudrup was often/sometimes arguably a forward nominally, like Cruyff):

    Bergkamp - 60% chance creator, 30% finisher, 10% controller
    Butragueno - 60% finisher, 40% chance creator
    Henry - 55% finisher, 45% chance creator
    Kempes - 60% finisher, 35% chance creator, 5% controller

    So only Bergkamp, of those, primarily a chance creator I'm thinking.
     
  4. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I might edge Xavi and Zidane to slight majority chance creators but it is very close. I think Xavi 08-09 was 60% chance creator, but world cup 10 Xavi was 60% controller. Zidane might be pretty close to 50-50 as well. Both did a lot of chance creating but Xavi with primarily passing and Zidane with dribbling/running.

    I don;t know if I would give Xavi any finishing. Even though he scores goals here and there that is a thing that happens in the course of the game, I never feel like part of his role is to try and get in the box and socre score periodically. Zidane I would give 5% or so finishing and he is dangerous with his head on set peices and in open play and seems to look for shooting opportunities.
     
  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, I felt like Xavi's primary role was controlling but in the sense of rotating possession smoothly, instigating moves with clever balls etc so there is some overlap with (the early stages of) chance creation perhaps. I could agree with taking finishing off him and leaving it at 5% for Zidane.
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #6 PuckVanHeel, Jul 28, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2014
    @Tom Stevens

    Can you tell which games you have seen of Di Stefano?

    I find him interesting and difficult to classify too... He certainly did a few things together but on the other hand his assist-total was very likely much lower as the goals he scored. In the interviews he gave, he himself says there is nothing better as scoring a goal and finishing a play.
    Compared with the assists/pre-assists he has very likely a much higher goal-ratio (e.g. probably two/three times as many goals as assists produced), yet at the same time it will provide a false impression when the 'finishing percentage' becomes overinflated too much...
    Both his own qualities as well as the dominance of the Real Madrid team allowed for a style where the initiator/builder of an attack (passage of play) also finishes it at the very end of a sequence.

    A few more thoughts from my point of view:

    IMHO the role of Puskas and Pelé were virtually identical. Both were inside-forwards with highly similar roles IMO. Eusebio can be added too. Some/many see Eusebio as a striker but in fact he wasn't one. For Benfica he always played behind a striker, just as Pelé did. Actually, both Benfica and Santos tended to use a similar playing system as well with similar playing formation (at times Benfica also used WM in Eusebio his early days).

    In his prime years Ronaldo had 6 assists in his 1996-97 season (La Liga) and 5-6 too in Serie A (1997-98). 35% is possibly a generous estimate.

    I can pick out more players but I'd emphasize the finishing part on these players more. This is particular true for Maradona his first three Napoli seasons, where his number of assists turns out to be relatively limited in fact. In his first Napoli season (1984-85), arguably his peak club season, he has 3-4 assists or so and 15 goals. Later on in his Napoli days he was far more a controller/creator, I agree (with Careca + one other additional forward playing in front of him).

    You describe Platini well, and also he set up many of the attacks. A vintage move was him passing to a running Boniek. Frequently Platini was there to finish the move.
    It was also the era where the main scorers tended to be midfielders, forwards or quasi left-wingers (strikers cutting inside from the left) rather than centre-forwards. It was not rare to see a Gigi Riva type, darting from the wide to inside positions.
    Trapattoni his Juve was clearly designed to let Platini score a lot; this is also visible at how Paolo Rossi played, who did not only exploit, or ran into space but a large part of Rossi his play was to create space and drag markers away.
    I think I'd emphasize the finishing a bit more as well as the controlling by the way (more as 10%). If you, for example, look at Platini vs Milan in 83/84 you see a lot of controlling there.
     
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  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Gianni Rivera - very high percentage for chance creation I'd say - maybe 90% with 10% scorer (I'm not sure it was his role to control play much even if he helped do it at times - he was an 'inside forward' I suppose even if much more a midfielder in terms of where he operated from.

    Kazimierz Deyna - maybe 40% each for chance creation and controlling, and 10% for scoring. At a push a chance creator though and sometimes much moreso I guess (I'm splitting it like this for the way he played as centre of 3 midfielders in the 1974 WC, albeit still not adding anything for defending as he didn't really supplement his back 4 or stay deep in midfield to protect them).
     
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  8. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    For Pele, Puskas , Eusebio G Best (in AVERAGE )

    Pele : 50% creator, 25% controller and 25% scoring/finishing (= CRUYFF)
    Puskas: 50% creator, 20% controller and 30% scoring/finishing
    Eusebio: 40% creator, 20% controller and 40% scoring/finishing
    G Best: 40% creator, 30% controller and 30% scoring finishing
     
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    That should be 45% each shouldn't it! Maybe make it 45% chance creation and up scoring to 15% though (but scoring wasn't a huge part of his role - at least not the role he played in 1974 WC - he was just pretty good at it!)
     
  10. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    This is a key distinction I think that may trip people up. Just because a player was good at something does not mean it was a major part of his role.

    For both Maradona and Ronaldo I do not think the role of chance creator is heavily associated with assists numbers, although a player with lots of assists often has a large role as a creator. One reason I skewed both of these players to chance creation was that many of their goals (especially early in their careers) they created and finished themselves.

    You are right about Maradona having a different role early in his career I have not seen much past highlights but I would speculate he was close to 50-50. Whereas in WC 86 even though he scored 5 in 7 his role was only 10 or 15% finishing imo. Most of his goals were chances he created himself. His primary goal was to try to dribble and pass through the defense to make something happen, some of the time he made something happen for himself but he was always the creator of the move.

    I probably agree with you on Platini could use more controlling and finishing.
     
  11. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Maradona 60% creator 20% Controller and 20% finisher
    Platini 50% creator 30% controller and 20% finisher (= ZICO)

    Ronaldo (R9) 40% creator 10% controller and 50% finisher (it's just average as he had 2 different path career)
     
  12. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    This is a great thread Tom and a different way to see things. I'm sure this approach will enrich the debates here :cool:

    The examples more debatables (as you said already) have been the fullbacks. If i understand you well. you mean Controller mainly as a player which dictate the pace of the game, someone who decided how the team must play and pulling the strings.

    In that sense, i think the likes of Cafú and Facchetti weren't that type of players. Much more in the direct comparison between the Santos, being both mainly Defenders, i will give the higher Controller% to Nilton (a more brained player) than Djalma (a physically athlete)
     
  13. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I think you are slightly misinterpreting what I mean by control, which is not surprising because i had a hard time explaining it in a way that made sense. You can control the game with athleticism just as you can with intelligent play. Edger Davids controlled the middle of the field in large part because of his endless energy to keep closing people down, keep running, keep tackling, keep making himself available for an open pass.

    So a controller is not necessarily controlling the pace of the game by pulling the strings, but by influencing who has possession (both winning and retaining and then building up the play towards an eventual attack). An example of a full back doing this often (supporting offensive build up) was Gary Neville with Man U. He had a great relationship with Beckham and would often provide Beckham passes where Beckham was in a good position to create a chance. I see Facchetti and Cafu pressing high up the pitch when their team had the ball supporting the attack and initiating the buildup as a major part of their role. They both created some chances as well but not as many as Roberto Carlos. I imagine they both played similar roles as Lahm does now when he plays fullbacks, as far as being well balanced between supporting attack, creating chances, and defending.
     
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  14. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Tom, I fully agree with your observations about Puskas, Pelé and Eusebio (not much differences among them as Puck said, too).
    Also about Cruyff, Di Stefano, B.Charlton and Sindelar as well balanced players.
    I think in the case of Leandro Andrade he should be a more balanced % between Controller/Defender, maybe a bit higher in Creator, too.
     
  15. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    I related the Controller role with players like Redondo, Didi, Ocwirk and old-fashioned Attacking Centrehalves.
    But, i can understand that it posible control the game not only with intelligent play, also with a physical play and athleticism (not to easy way to see, btw).
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    OK, now I understand you better.

    "
    For both Maradona and Ronaldo I do not think the role of chance creator is heavily associated with assists numbers, although a player with lots of assists often has a large role as a creator. One reason I skewed both of these players to chance creation was that many of their goals (especially early in their careers) they created and finished themselves.
    "


    The second sentence is a good point; although it might be argued that still their primary role is to finish plays. Ronaldo maybe had just ~5 club goals entirely created by himself in his prime seasons too. Maybe it is a matter of definition but compared with the amount of attempts he made on goal, I don't think he created the half of it. But yes, if you take into account what he created for himself (and the opposition men tied to him, which creates opportunities in an indirect way for team-mates) I can understand the 35-65 proportion better.

    As for Maradona in 1986; I think in the knock-out stage of the tournament his role shifted more to the finishing side as 10-15% show. In the KO stage he played as second striker and occassionally even as 'striker' (i.e. the most advanced player).




    At times he played more as a forward or centre forward even, and then he relinquished the 'controlling' job totally to other players. He did in those cases little for the possession play.
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I'd say the 1974WC version of Cruijff can use more controlling. It can be said he was the main hub/outlet of that team, with high teamwork. By 1977 also one of his main detractors Eric Batty wrote he was a "midfield general".

    B. Charlton looks fairly accurate, for his later years (1966 and beyond).

    I doubt about Di Stefano.
     
  18. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Not really
    many had BIG COMMON MISTAKE to label Puskas , Pele , Cruyff and Zico as FW. NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

    They were called "inside LEFT" or #10 or Playmaker or AM of the team in their clubs *Santos.

    Here is Brazil press , CLEARLY listed Pele as "Meia" same for Zico
    http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/especial/2008/campeonatopaulista/artilheiros_da_historia-2.shtml


    Artilheiros da história - 2
    Gols Nom Pos Clube
    [​IMG]
    PeléMeiaSantos

    1962
    [​IMG]
    PeléMeiaSantos

    1961
    [​IMG]
    PeléMeiaSantos

    1960
    [​IMG]
    PeléMeiaSantos

    1959
    [​IMG]
    PeléMeiaSantos

    1958
    [​IMG]
    PeléMeiaSantos


    1957
    [​IMG]
    PeléMeiaSantos
     
  19. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    The similarity is that Eusebio played in a 4-2-4 system paired with a striker, playing the Black Panther as a sort of Second Striker or Support Striker in nowadays lingo.

    The same happens with Puskas and Pelé when played in a 4-2-4 system (magycal magyars, Brazil 58-66, Real Madrid, Santos)

    In the case of Zico, i guess he played as Trequartista (behind one striker), ONLY in his Serie-A years. But few seasons in his overall career to consider him Forward.
    So he's clearly an AM.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    He has 2-3 assists in those Serie A years, next to 22 Serie A goals. So his primary role/function in those seasons (1983-85) was clearly to score loads of goals (= finisher).
     
  21. SirWellingtonSilva

    May 30, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Have you watched all the match highlights of those 3 seasons? It's not like he wasn't creating a lot of big chances. Staggering in that period how many one on one with the keeper and other big chances his teammates missed. Believe me I took the time to watch through all of it, of course you expect most chances to be missed as that is the nature of it, but he could go through large periods of time creating numerous chances and not getting one single assist, it was an abnormality.

    In Barcelona he recorded a lot of assists (certainly in 82 83 it was well into double figures) and also at Boca juniors (he had about 17 in his one season)
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    At Barcelona he was more of a creator/controller as at the first few Napoli seasons I'd say, yes... In particular compared with 1984-85.

    In 1982-83 regularly playing as a wing-forward.

    10 assists in the league, in 1983-84 it was 4 assists (or lower).

    The purported incompetence of his team mates (for ex. the inability to pass) has been discussed a few times before.
     
  23. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    yes your;e right about Puskas and Pele in NT *only <60games (Pele became a playmaker for Brazil in 1963-70 when Didi retired)

    Many DID ignore the fact: BOTH PUSKAS and PELE were play maker for their clubs (Santos and Honved) for 900+ games (Pele) and 300+games (Puskas)
     
  24. SirWellingtonSilva

    May 30, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    10 assists from 20 games, that's a long way above normal, it is not common to see someone average an assist every 2 games. 4 assists from 16 games is about average or above average and of course we know why that season wasn't as impressive.

    The purported incompetence is rather difficult to argue against when they finish 7th in the league despite having a fully fit maradona the entire year.
     
  25. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    As far as i know, a Trequartista is the player who plays in "the hole", so he's in between an AM and a FW.
    So, i don't see a great inconsistency, unless you're claiming that Zico played a a striker in his italian years.


    btw, that's only 2 years in a 20 years career.
     

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