Tom Sermanni fired - discuss

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by Blaze20, Apr 6, 2014.

  1. skybolt

    skybolt Member

    Dec 16, 2011
    Club:
    Barcelona Guayaquil
    I'm sure the current player contract format is very complex, so I won't even pretend that I know all or any of the intricate details. However, I'd hope that the number of contracts given out during the WC and Olympics are a lot more than during off peak years. For instance, it would make sense to me if the USSF expanded the number of contracts given out between March 2014 and July 2015 to 35. However, the actual number of contracts given out will be left under the discretion of the coach. If he/she feels comfortable with only giving out 27 contracts, then great. However, they would still have the option of bringing on another 7 or 8 players and not worry about skirting around a rotational system. After the WC, the maximum number of contracts can be dropped to 28 in the lead up to the Olympics, until September 2016. Once we reach the off-peak seasons I'd say lower the number of contracts given out to USWNT members to 15. You still get to keep your core players (Solo, Morgan, etc.), say goodbye to retiring ones (Wambach, Rampone, etc.), and give the fringe players (RVH, A-Rod, HAO) an incentive to work their way back into a contract situation. If some of these fringe players feel shafted by the process and decide to move overseas during off-peak seasons, then it's their loss since a new crop of players will be ready to take their place in 2018.
     
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  2. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Well I dont believe u take the Olympic roster to Canada in 2015 and win WC. This team needs to evolve.
     
  3. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    The problem was the way NT contracts r tied to NWSL contracts. These need to be two separate line items. The NT needs to be concerned about paying the 23 players they want to try and win the cup with and not have to worry how that impacts the NWSL.
     
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  4. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Actually u dont need as many contracts during the Olympic year because the roster is only 18 players and is mostly derived by cutting down ur WC roster. It's the two off years where u need to expand contract slots to build the most advantageous WC roster.
     
  5. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Bringing in a new coach at this point opens many cans of worms. First, no coach, not even Ellis is familiar with all the player brought in. Is the new coach going to start re-evaluating those players and is that fair to the ones who cant be brought in for contractual reasons? Also, to use the above example, does a new coach have a chance of getting hired if the espouse the notion that there could be a question of whether Hagen or Wambach deserve a spot? Finally can candidates actually say anything other than they think they can win with what they have and have a shred of hope of getting hired?
     
  6. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    RVH and HAO are fringe players? They are players who are on the team unless others clearly displace them and I don't see others who are going to do that.
     
  7. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    AFAIK the fed can give out as many contracts as they wish.

    The reason they aren't contracting these players after the six weeks are up is because they are unwilling to spend more than the minimum required by the CBA, not because the CBA says they cannot contract a new player without dropping an old one.

    If they want to contract a Tymrack or a Hagen, there's nothing stopping them but their own Scrooginess...
     
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  8. Morris20

    Morris20 Member

    Jul 4, 2000
    Upper 90 of nowhere
    Club:
    Washington Freedom
    And THAT (desire to spend as little as possible and limit the size of player pool, even as they want to blood new players) is the most likely cause of Sermanni's firing.

    That doesn't even bring in the contracts they sign for friendlies stipulating appearances by relatively high numbers of "star" players that even further tie any coach's hands.
     
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  9. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    this would be based on the theory that what a coach does in the build up to wc and Olympic tournaments is what the coach would continue to do after the tournament is over and there are now good young players available while old players are two years older.

    I understand this theory, except it seems to need an assumption about pia or whoever the coach is who continues after the big tournament with young players coming up and old players now even older, that said coach is first, simply ignorant, second, really stupid, and third, just plain dumb.
     
  10. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I love the way some posters develop conspiracy theories and then make up hypothetical scenarios that support their theories and then state the hypothetical scenarios not as hypotheticals but as facts.:eek:
     
  11. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Well whether it was ignorant or not solely depends on whether she wins. If the US had lost to Canada in the semis in 2012, Sundhage would have been under huge criticism for the way they approached that game. History is revisionist. If Sundhage won the 2015 WC using the same players and tactics she's a genius. What does seem certain to me was how set in her ways she was. She played the players she liked beyond all reason and protected those players from too much competition. I have no reason to think that would change.
     
  12. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    Then you've come to the right place.
     
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  13. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    nonsense.

    if mourhino or pep lose the champions league that does not make them ignorant.
     
  14. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006

    In 2012 she played players beyond all reason? Wasn't the reason to win Gold in the Olympics?


    Didn't that happen?
     
  15. skybolt

    skybolt Member

    Dec 16, 2011
    Club:
    Barcelona Guayaquil
    I specifically said that we should reduce the number of contracts to 15 after the 2016 Olympics. By that time I do believe that both HAO and RVH will become fringe type players since they'll both be 34 years old by the 2019 WC. I'm not saying that the new coach or a returning one shouldn't bring them to camp for another shot, but they shouldn't be obligated to because of existing contracts.

    What I'm basically saying is that after the Olympic tournament concludes the USSF should reduce the number of contracts to 15 for the next 1.5 years to save money for the peak seasons, which would include all of 2018, 2019 and part of 2020. This process would also give the existing players an incentive to play better during the major tournaments so they can keep their existing contracts moving forward. For instance, why should the USSF automatically award someone like A-Rod with a contract after having a subpar WC or Olympic tournament? The same thing applies to an Amy LePeilbet or Shannon Boxx due to injuries.

    In this process, the head coach calls up his 15 contract players to every camp from August 2016 until the end of 2017. During this process they can call up as many other players as they want to camps without having to handout contracts. Once 2018 hits, the coach should have a fairly good idea which players he or she would like to see more of in the build-up towards the WC. For instance, for the first camp in January 2018, the coach can call up their favorite new players and be able to hand 6 or 7 contracts afterwards. The next camp will see another 3 players get a contract and so forth until we reach 35 contracts by the end of 2018. In the beginning of 2019 the coach can decide to cut ties with some of these new contract players (or old ones) that have been coming to every camp without facing repercussions from the USSF.

    For instance, what I believe happened in Sermanni's situation is that he probably had an "A" list and "B" list of new young talent that he wanted to tryout for the team. By having a limited number of contracts to give out (due to whatever reason) his main focus became Dunn, Brian, Press and K. Mewis. Perhaps his "B" list included talent like Tymrak, Johnston, Hagen, Horan, Brooks, etc., but unfortunately he was stuck with players like RVH and A-Rod that already had existing contracts. What this meant is that RVH and A-Rod became staples at every single camp due to their existing contracts, while some of the new young talent was used as a revolving door since Sermanni wanted to at least protect his "A" list.
     
  16. skybolt

    skybolt Member

    Dec 16, 2011
    Club:
    Barcelona Guayaquil
    #891 skybolt, Apr 24, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
    That is true. Also, even though some countries may not see the Olympic tournament as a top priority, it is still a big deal here in the states. Would the NWSL have been commissioned without the positive results at the 2012 Olympics?
     
  17. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    #892 Cliveworshipper, Apr 24, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014

    The revolving door was of Semanni's own creation.

    Nowhere in any of the explanations by either the USSF or Sermanni was the lack of funds to bring in new players mentioned as a factor.
     
  18. skybolt

    skybolt Member

    Dec 16, 2011
    Club:
    Barcelona Guayaquil
    I can't remember where I read it, but didn't Sermanni mention the contract situation being an issue during one of his post firing interviews?

    Perhaps Sermanni's laid back attitude and accepting of the status quo was his way of trying to please everyone while avoiding confrontation. If he wanted to bring more new players to every camp but was too timid to ask for permission from the USSF (due to contract restrictions), or he was obligated to give K. Mewis more playing time to please Jill Ellis, then he deserved to be fired!
     
  19. lunatica

    lunatica Member+

    Nov 20, 2013
    Actually Sermanni did speak about these limitations when he was a coach and after he was fired also.
     
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  20. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    A minimum number is surely specified in the CBA, and therefore not adjustable before the bargaining for the next CBA.

    And I can't see all the players people want to see "given a chance" actually wanting a chance if they are going to be automatically playing musical chairs at that 3 into 2 ratio every couple of years?
     
  21. skybolt

    skybolt Member

    Dec 16, 2011
    Club:
    Barcelona Guayaquil
    #896 skybolt, Apr 24, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
    I knew someone would bring up this issue, and it's definitely a legitimate concern. However, the main focus should still be to do everything possible to win the WC tournament. This event by itself could make or break the entire future of the NWSL. Also, what happens moving forward if the new coach is in love with 6 players on the Portland Thorns team and wants to take all of them to the WC tournament? Would the USSF step in and say "nope, sorry, you are obligated to take exactly 3 players from each team even if that team is 2 and 10 in the win/loss column. Also, if you insist on taking the 6 players then we'll give Paul Riley a call and have him send 2 of his key players to Houston and 2 to Boston, and then make sure that he never fields such a good team again!"
     
  22. skybolt

    skybolt Member

    Dec 16, 2011
    Club:
    Barcelona Guayaquil
    I'm sure this question has been answered before, but wasn't the whole player contract issue more of a way to split top level talent amongst the various league teams within the NWSL? I thought that the teams still paid the minimum $30k or whatever salary for these contract players. So for instance, if in the future, Portland has 5 contract players while Houston has only 2, both teams will still be only paying their minimum salaries. I realize that Houston will now have to go out and pay more money to bring a top level talent from Europe to replace the one contract player displaced, but shouldn't this be an incentive to play well and win? Why should the contract issue become an albatross around the NT"s head coach because he/she cannot pick the best players no matter which team they play for, similar to France with Lyon?
     
  23. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    The Collective Bargaining Agreement involved is with the Fed, not the league. Allocation is just an arrangement between the league and the Fed.
     
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  24. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    The original 2006 CBA which stipulated the following. USSoccer was required to offer 20 full contracts each year and could offer up to 24 full contracts at their discretion. Of course we dont know if these numbers were changed with the new CBA in 2013.
     
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  25. skybolt

    skybolt Member

    Dec 16, 2011
    Club:
    Barcelona Guayaquil
    Ok, then that makes things simpler. Like I mentioned before 15 guaranteed player contracts are more than enough to hand out after the Olympics. If you are not part of the 15 then you have an opportunity to prove yourself in the following few years to get a contract again. It's sort of like the NBA where players like Lebron receive large multi year contracts because they are the top talent, while others scratch and claw their way competing against new and old talent to get a 1 or 2 year contract. This method would at least give hope to players like Hagen or Tymrak since they know that if they perform well during off-peak years they have a very good chance at receiving a contract during the peak years.
     

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