Review: So What Could This Mean For Die Mannschaft?

Discussion in 'Germany: National Teams' started by .Azulgrana., May 2, 2013.

  1. .Azulgrana.

    .Azulgrana. Red Card

    Aug 2, 2012
    Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund have knocked out the Spanish giants this week to confirm that there will, for the first time ever, be an all-German final in the European Cup/UEFA Champions League history of the competition.

    Bayern proved to be too strong physically and far more advanced on a tactical scale in comparison to Barcelona, the club that has set the benchmark for European football in recent years, winning 7-0 on aggregate. Dortmund's high pressing and ruthlessness on the counter saw them deservedly knock out an expensive Real Madrid squad, coached by one of the best coaches in the world, who are still looking for their tenth European crown.

    The mental strength displayed by both sides was something that was said to have been lacking in recent years from German sides, especially when coming up against the Italian and Spanish sides. That has been put to bed this season by these two German clubs.

    So how does this all translate to the German national team ahead of the 2014 FIFA World Cup in Brazil? How can this evidence of physical and tactical superiority play its way in Joachim Low's plans for next year's finals? What needs to be done to translate this into international success?

    Discuss please.
     
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  2. Obsidian

    Obsidian Member

    Apr 22, 2012
    near Munich
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I think it will affect. Lots of players gained some serious confidence in this CL-campaign, especially the Dortmund guys. I also think if the Bayern won anything in 2012 - it´s mental strenght. Then again, you never know what happens when Uncle Jogi steps up in the Semi´s/finals, shit´s his own pants and changes tactics again. So, personally, I think the players have progressed, but Im not so sure on Lows side.
     
  3. Leinad

    Leinad Member+

    Jun 13, 2006
    Düsseldorf
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    It means that it is more and more obvious who is holding this team back...
    Löw has simply not made the best use of the available players and Germany has never been as organised as Dortmund or especially Bayern.
    So my only hope is that Löw took some notes and is able to learn from his mistakes.
     
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  4. Snakeater

    Snakeater Member

    Sep 21, 2005
    Just because the German champions knocked out the Spanish clubs doesn't mean that we'll see the same thing happen in international football. First, one could argue that a great deal of Bayern's success could be attributed to non-German players: Ribery, Robben, Javi Martinez, Alaba, Dante, Mandzukic. Martinez has made a huge difference in Bayern's midfield this season. Where would Bayern be without him and the players mentioned above?

    Dortmund might be a better indicator of where German football stands in comparison to the rest of the world because a majority of their starting lineup is German, minus the three Polish starters and Neven Subotic.

    Last, Leinad does make a good point with respect to the current head coach. Loew is probably not the right man, at this point, to lead them to the promised land. Does anyone doubt that Klopp or Heyneckes could get more out of these players than Loew?
     
  5. BorisG

    BorisG Member+

    Sep 30, 2009
    Namibia
    Club:
    FC Nürnberg
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    How can you say Dortmund more so than Bayern is a show of German soccer currently.
    Neuer
    Lahm,Boateng, Hummels, Schmelzer
    Schweinie,Gundogan. Bender
    Muller, Goetze,Reus
    GoMEZ
    6 bayern and 6 Dortmund players all who played in the SEMIS of the CL.
    I believe both teams being there shows that the NT has the potential to beat anybody out there.
    What they used to lack was that total drive to win (2010-2102), it was that last 10 % that was missing. Klopp and heynkes has now given it to the players and yes hopefully Jogi can reap the benefits of their work (as he has done up to now anyway)..
     
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  6. dbs235

    dbs235 Member

    Mar 30, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I think he was saying that Dortmund's success has been more down to their German players than Bayern's has. Not that I agree/disagree with the statement. But having only watched the two teams in the Champions League the stand-outs seemed to be for Dortmund: Lewandowski, Reus, Gundogan and Weidenfeller. Bayern: Schweinsteiger, Martinez, Muller, Ribery.
     
  7. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    As mentioned above, Löw has simply not implemented the level of tactics and motivation that Klopp and Heynckes has.

    Foreign players aside, both teams have a strong core of German players who are important to their teams.

    For one, it's very simple, Löw is limited tactically. For years he has relied on a Klose-centric 4-2-3-1 with no variation, just dependent on quick transitions and individual quality of some front players. He hasn't managed to get rid of dead weight players or bench them when necessary. In other words he still plays favorites instead of making bold decisions even with popular or senior players.

    Secondly, he continues to fall behind tactical trends. When Bayern started playing possession or learn to combine a passing game with the physical and direct game, Löw made no changes. When Dortmund implemented their high pressing game based on interchanging players, Löw was extremely late to try and implement that.

    The solution lies in a combination of the two styles but also a slight change in shape. The recent false nine use is a positive move but it's come late. He also needs to keep these players motivated enough to create the kind of synergy we need. He should also play to the players strengths and balance it with responsibility. Don't limit Hummels to a game he doesn't thrive in. Let him play the long balls and wander up field but cautiously. Maybe try Höwedes out at CB and give someone else a shot at FB. It's time for him to be bold and trust these players.
     
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  8. nekkibasara

    nekkibasara Member+

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I think his point about Bayern was completely wrong. If we look at the knock-out round this year a German player (Mueller) has scored and assisted against every opponent including 3 goals and 1 assist against Barcelona.
     
  9. nekkibasara

    nekkibasara Member+

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Given the way that Bayern played a traditional number nine in both games and abused a team full of small technical players, I am wondering why plan A should be a diminutive false nine. Bayern showed everyone the exact way in-which to stifle a team that plays a false nine and bases all of its attacks on quick passing through the middle.

    The false nine is a good plan B, but it has some serious limitations.
     
  10. Franca

    Franca Member

    Oct 7, 2011
    NYC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I agree that it has become and will become more obvious that it is the coaching of the German NT holding it back.

    If Loew can't get it right when it matters, then we will fall again at the final hurdle(s). Italy game front and center. Which isn't to say that I don't appreciate what he has done....following the German NT since 2004 has been quite a spectacular journey. But, I think under pressure he makes things complicated when he should just keep things simple and I worry that he has already lost the faith/trust of the players.

    Clearly quite a few of the players of both Dortmund and Bayern made some pretty big steps this year.
    I think there can be little doubt to us and hopefully to the players themselves that they lack the talent or confidence. In short, I do not think this little dance with success will be unhelpful next summer :)
     
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  11. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I don't think Bayern's success against Barcelona has anything in particular to do with the selection of "traditional strikers" (I also wouldn't call Mandzukic a traditional number nine) as it had to do with just knowing how to expose Barcelona's known weaknesses. They used Gomez in the first leg but not in the same way they did last year. Not a lot of attacks came through him and he did far more pressing off the ball than normally along with Müller.

    Let's keep in mind that a false nine system was not the reason Barcelona lost and isn't a singular approach system that only relies on a rigid interpretation. You can easily play a Mandzukic in Messi's role with the same results.

    Bayern's strength right now is that they are the most balanced side and showing that a direct approach, coupled with an ability to retain and press high with physicality when necessari is the way to win titles. That's what I've been saying about Germany and it's what Dortmund need to learn next year (and why it's highly likely they will lose to Bayern in the final)

    I'm not particularly set on a false nine system for Germany as much as I am set on a system that allows us to use our best attacking players to the best of their abilities. We don't have a Lewy or Mandzukic and Gomez although he offered defensive work in the first leg, it came at the expense of how he usually thrives. Bayern have also not used him in a way where he does both. It can be worth trying out but I don't trust Löw to know how to make it work and quite frankly I don't or can't really see that either.
     
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  12. heynckes' hanging leftnut

    Feb 27, 2013
    This...

    More non-germans have played a part in bayern's success than have germans.
     
  13. MatthausSammer

    MatthausSammer Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 9, 2012
    Canada
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Bayern's starting XI:
    ---------Mandzukic--------
    Müller---Kroos---Ribèry
    Schweinsteiger-Martinez
    Lahm-Dante-Boateng-Alaba
    -----------Neuer--------------
    Foreigners: 5 (Dante, Alaba, Martinez, Ribèry, Mandzukic)
    Germans: 6 (Neuer, Lahm, Boateng, Schweinsteiger, Kroos, Müller)

    How do you get that impression?
     
  14. heynckes' hanging leftnut

    Feb 27, 2013
    cuz neuer, boateng and kroos haven't done that much while the 5 foreigners have all been central to it
     
  15. MatthausSammer

    MatthausSammer Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 9, 2012
    Canada
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    "More central" is different from "more".
     
  16. Zarastro

    Zarastro Member

    Mar 30, 2012
    Germany
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I know this is maybe not the most pressing-concern but I hope Löw nominates Weidenfeller as a substitute. Neuer is the best German GK but if Neuer got injured in the semi-final against e.g. Italy, I'd certainly rather see Weidenfeller coming from the bench than Ter Stegen. Roman is right now in the form of his live and I dare say was Borussia Dortmund's most consistent player in their CL campaign. We are blessed with young talented Gk but there is no need to rush things, let Ter Stegen and Co. get a bit more experience in the Bundesliga.
     
  17. MatthausSammer

    MatthausSammer Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 9, 2012
    Canada
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I'd be all for that, but I'd rather see Adler edge it over Weidenfeller personally for the 2nd GK spot. Adler has been amazing for Hamburg and brings just as much experience but a slight bit more reliability than Weidenfeller IMO. Ter Stegen has the highest ceiling though.
     
  18. Vasu

    Vasu Member

    Feb 25, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Dude you're giving me and my OCD panic attacks by mirroring the formations all the time. Except for Schweinsteiger - Martinez and of course.
     
  19. MatthausSammer

    MatthausSammer Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 9, 2012
    Canada
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Mirroring the formations? What do you mean?
     
  20. Bazi

    Bazi Member+

    Jan 15, 2009
    Wuerzburg (Germany)
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    The only thing I know is that the chance of Löw getting fired after messing up the 2014 WC got significantly higher. After all, he can't use the unsuccessful and uncompetitive clubs as an excuse any more.

    Perhaps even the biggest ignorants will demand answers why the National Team can't win with the player material of two CL finalists.

    Müller LW, Ribéry RW & Alaba RB , Lahm LB perhaps?
     
  21. MatthausSammer

    MatthausSammer Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 9, 2012
    Canada
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Oh... Sorry. My bad. Still, my point stands.
     
  22. Bazi

    Bazi Member+

    Jan 15, 2009
    Wuerzburg (Germany)
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I don't even know what your point was...just following up on Vasu.

    To answer to the question of the thread:

    Should Guardiola manage to create a working starting lineup with Müller, Götze, Kroos, Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Boateng/Badstuber and Neuer then I advise Jogi Löw strongly to copy it and fill the ranks with the top players of Borussia Dortmund and Bayer Leverkusen.
     
  23. heynckes' hanging leftnut

    Feb 27, 2013
    "to more", not "from more"
     
  24. Vasu

    Vasu Member

    Feb 25, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Heh, I actually temporarily edited the source code of the web page to make your formation right. Need to cut down on that OCD a bit. :x3:
     
  25. timh19

    timh19 Member+

    Jul 26, 2011
    What could this mean to the national team ???
    Sack Loew and bring Heynckes in this summer. He will have one year to prepare them for the World Cup. He knows a lot of the starting eleven players of course thanks to Bayern.
    Heynckes can bring the world cup home.

    Also Sven Bender > Khedira. It is clear Khedira shouldnt be in the starting eleven. Poor passing and awful tactically( defensive positioning). He makes a lot of forward runs but he is so poor technically he is actually useless offensively. Sven Bender does the dirty work fantastically and he will let Schweinsteiger make the forward runs like he does for Bayern.

    Unfortunately Germany doesnt have incredible dribblers on the wings like Ribery and Robben but Goetze, Draxler( could be the next ribery but is still too young) and Reus are still dangerous on the wings. Maybe Mueller could be the central striker with his great movement he could be the goalscorer of the team.
     
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