Sam Bartram never operated at the highest level...? Fifteen or so years in the First Division.... and it would have been more if World War 2 hadn't intervened....... played in a team that finished runners up in the 1st Division......... played in two FA Cup Finals........ widely regarded as the best goalkeeper England never had..? Never operated at the highest level..? What do you want, mate..? If your criteria is international caps (which is the only thing Sam didn't get in his career) is the overriding criteria, then why not just say so and call this an international listing...? And if that is the case, where is Peter "The Cat" Bonetti on the list..? He played in a World Cup, don't forget (how could we forget England vs Germany, 1970?).... And what about Chris Woods who won a lot of England caps, mostly in the reign of an absolute muppet it has to be said, but hey.... this is about caps, right..? And then there's Gary Sprake of the highly successful Leeds United team of the 60s and 70s.... ok, he was prone to the odd howler here and there but he won a lot of caps for Wales so he must have played at the highest level, right..? Bob Wilson did the Double with Arsenal in the days when doing the Double was actually a rare achievement. And he won international caps with Scotland. No mention of him, either..? Sam Bartram didn't operate at the highest level....? Saints preserve us...!! <Rolls eyes upwards and walks away, shaking head sadly>
The counter argument to the assertion that players of yesteryear couldn't survive in todays football, is to challenge whether today's players could have survived in the 50's, 60's or 70's. With football becoming increasingly sanitised, and the contact element being taken out of the game, I wonder how many of today's Nancy boy footballers, who faint at the first whiff of a tackle, or who go to ground when they feel the force of a kitten's fart from tier three of the stand, and roll around in agony, clutching their faces while their team mates wave imaginary cards in the referees face..... how would they have fared with Norman Hunter, or Ron "chopper" Harris, or Peter Storey, or Tommy Smith kicking lumps off them every Saturday afternoon...? I'd like to see Michael Owen get back up after Billy Bremner made a point of introducing himself, or the ever precious Wayne Rooney stand up to a thumping from any of the Italian hatchet men that would have been awaiting him in European or International football. Claudio Gentile was not a gentle man. And then there were the playing conditions themselves....... I'd love to see your silky skilled, technical geniuses parade their graceful talents on the old Baseball Ground pitch at Derby County in January...... or Loftus Road... or Filbert Street. Sodden mudbaths... not a blade of grass left down the middle of the field after about mid October. Tons of sand shovelled onto them before matches, getting churned up into a quagmire which sapped the strength from the legs and rendered studded boots ineffective for keeping balance because they became caked with thick, cloying mud within minutes of setting foot on the field. Let's see Arsenal's beautiful passing game flourish on the frost frozen ruts of February and March when playing the ball along the ground was nothing more than a lottery. Let's see any of today's pampered, softie superstars excel on anything less than the snooker table, perfection surfaces that they have today, and with the physical element of football that is being systematically eradicatd from the game, restored to allow the tackling terrorists to return and make their presence felt. I think your wussy superstars of the modern EPL would be running and crying for mummy long before somebody like Dave Mackay had finished with them. .
Comparing players of different eras is a little bit apples and oranges. You can only consider them in the context of when they played. Sports science has vastly improved since the 40s and 50s, and players of that era would have benefited from those improvements if they played today. Going outside of football and using a rather simplistic example, Roger Bannister wasn't a mediocre runner in an even more mediocre era. Had he been competing today; he would, in all likelihood have, have gone a lot further than just breaking the four minute mile. Would he have been competing with the world's best? It's completely unknown, but you'd still have to consider him as one of the all-time great mile runners for his accomplishment in his era.
["kitten fart", that's a good one, mate. Thank you for backing up & elaborating on what I was saying about the English top-flight of the '40s, '50s & '60s as well.]
Dalglish v. Henry: [I actually have to agree w/Lanman on something. The forward roles that "King Kenny" & Henry actually played for Liverpool & Arsenal respectively are too different for a head-to-head comparison IMO. Bergkamp v. Dalglish would probably be a more suitable contest if you're still looking for one, thebigman.]
I know this has little to do with the topic but it seems that I can't create a new thread in the off topic section. The world is concerned with the Egyptian situation. It seems that it's changing for the better; check this out: http://europeanconsensus.com/news/e...he-presidential-palace-and-overthrow-mubarak/ Read it entirely and be happy. The world needs to hear some optimistic news as well...
Sanatized??????? is that what you want to call it. Maybe the fact that after a few years of broken limbs ending careers they chose to adjust that Neanderthal approach to the game for the sake of self preservation.And only allow it for teams to use against Arsenal. I grew up in England in the 70's was very familiar with Ron Harris as he played for the fisrt team i fell in ,love with and Bremner was his main foe at that time if i'm not mistaken. The rivalry between Chelsea and Leeds was legendary. But i wouldn't change todays game for that bloodbath back then for anything. It's called evolution and it's a good thing. BUt yeah i would love to see Henry play in them days ,that would be absolutely hilarious. By the way someone compared stats of Henry and the great Kenny Dalglish ,but never pt up Dalglish's assist stats, because thats what made Henry one of the best ever. Personally , i think Drogba is the best centre forward ever in that league ,when you consider how much he brings to the game ,the amount of goals he's scored in BIG matches. Not many can compare to him when you take a good look at his ability. I think anyone who yearns for them days back then ,can't play football. It's the same mentality that keeps players like Walcott and ADam johnson at home while players like Lampard , Barry and Milner stink up south africa! A joke is what it is, England desperately trying to hold onto a bankrupt identity. You'll win nothing dreaming holding on to the past,our days are done ,get over it and let the youth take over.
Nice reminder! Made them statements before Drogba's champions league heroics! When you look at the exploits of who many want to call the best player ever (messi's ) exploits in the world cup ,i think i am fully justified in saying 80% of the footballing reporting world got their heads up their *sses ,and are only driven by the lemming like throng that follow their every sensationalist word in their quest out of their mundane lives.
[Yeah, I came across this thread looking for info about Neil Franklin to post links to over @ XT.org...]
[I was in Britain when that aired: one of the best programmes/specials that I've ever seen on BBC4 IMO. That '57 FA Cup Final was also the one where Duncan Edwards featured as a (W-M-type) centre-half for most of the match IIRC...]
This is Jimmy Greaves' list of the fifty greatest British footballers of all-time: http://people.co.uk/jimmy-greaves-50-greatest-british-players/ I also tend to agree w/the manner in which Greaves uses the term "greatest"...