Daily Mail Top 50 players ever

To answer schwuppe first then come back to Peru:
From when I first started thinking about this for my own entertainment I never really had any specific criteria so in that respect my method would be different to comme's or Peru's or probably yours (comme for example used his top 100 lists which he'd compiled with specific criteria in mind and longevity, greatness within era etc were undoubtedly considered a lot more than I have considered them; I've no problem with that and indeed asked him to add his top 100 myself as I thought it'd be interesting and round off his project nicely).

My best description of my criteria might simply be 'if all players were playing in the same era which do I believe would be worth the biggest transfer fees?'...I know that's an impossible question but personally I find it more interesting to try and assess even with a lot of guesswork the inherant qualities of the players on equal terms like that, while still being interested in comme's and Peru's lists after their extensive research and analysis etc very much so. The other problem is the more I come accross great players from times when the available footage is close to nil and written descriptions are hard to assess, the more difficulty I have in estimating where I think they stand on a like-for-like basis. Yet if I'm to be convinced for example that Juan Schiaffino is worthy of a top 50 ranking I'd really want to be convinced, otherwise it feels 'iffy' to place him higher than players like for example Pires even though he is more of a legend in historical terms. I've seen some footage and read testimony some of it glowing but not enough to convince me to rate him quite that high.

I'm attempting an impossible task I'm sure but it was interesting to me - I hope this explains a little where I'm coming from. Admitedly when I started inserting the likes of Josef Bican and Jose Manuel Moreno I was really blindly guessing but the info I found did suggest they should at least be in the mix so my inclusion of them is recognition of their class as well as a vague estimation of where they might stand in a straight comparison to more modern players. When I'm convinced the player stands right near the top IMO like with Di Stefano then I don't have a problem putting him there even without proof of his capabilities since the 60's. It really is just a personal guestimation, but hopefully nobody has a problem with that method as I don't with anybody elses. I even wonder whether the Daily Mail had a slightly similar approach to myself.

Peru, actually I'll come back to your post later but thanks for the kind words at the end of the post (maybe my reply to schwupe explains a little why I was hesitant to give higher rankings to Schiaffino, Zizinho etc - it is very hard to go on mostly written testimony but I do want to be convinced by actual abilities rather than reputation and achievments- I found it interesting to try and assess such players but perhaps I should've left them out with a disclaimer like I did with Pedernera who I just didn't feel I could get a decent idea about at all for example).

 

Henrik Larsson is a player that I think at one time I under-rated myself - it's possible I've gone too much the other way now and I have moved him down a little as I did feel I had done that - I can see the argument he should be moved down more but I'm reluctant. If he was the player being compared to Romario and Batistuta then I indeed have to have him below although he does have certain advantages in mobility and work-rate/teamwork over Romario and ball control/set-up play and maybe awareness over Batistuta. It's maybe harsh on him but he only showed his very best form, including scoring vast amounts of goals, in Scotland - I believe he could have scored nearly as many in England probably but he didn't have the goalscoring genius of Romario quite or the power of Batistuta. He showed while at Barcelona that he could excel for a high level team and in aspects such as awareness and team-play too. I also don't think his goalscoring while in Scotland should be too quickly written off and as I wrote earlier in the thread he had a very good record in terms of gpg for Sweden just looking at a few years at the start of this Century (another aspect of my way of forming my personal ranking was that I was in the main considering the prime periods of the players). I think when all said and done he had a lot as a player - he was quick, he could evade players on the dribble and round goalies easily, he had good teamwork and was a very capable assister, he could score goals with his head sometimes very impressively as well as his left foot and his right with which he also scored some spectacularly. He is a bit of an outlier in terms of the league he played in and I think I did have him too high (maybe I still do) but his talent particularly for scoring goals was of a very high level. Does he rate as highly as a striker as Nesta and Buffon do as defensive players? - No, but forwards on average are the more valuable players - it's a difficult task to compare those 3 directly of course. I'm sure most people including me would agree he's further away from an all-time XI but maybe the case that in his prime he'd be worth more (and potentially not just in Scotland although unless Champions League Final assists after his prime and after some injuries trump everything he wasn't able to prove so as such) isn't completely silly. Or maybe it is?

Pires v CR7 - well first I just made the definition about the higher transfer fees up yesterday and in this case I'm not claiming a team would've have paid £80m for Pires if he'd been 10 years younger! I don't believe if he'd been used more as a forward he'd have scored as many goals but he proved he could score a lot playing as a midfield winger while also being IMO a much more team focused, much more creative player than CR7. I think the timing and direction of his passing was generally better. As a winger in his physical prime (before the injury in 2002) he was clearly better at getting down the outside and then picking players out IMO. He actually played better for France when he got the opportunity than CR7 has done at International level (IMO again). He was on the fringes of the French team in '98 partly due I think to the manager building a system around Zidane, but he provided a great assist in the final of Euro 2000 and went on to be the Player of the Tournament in the 2001 Confederations Cup. If he was reproducing similar displays as he produced for Arsenal I can understand why. I actually do believe that he probably gets under-rated when talking about the best wingers of all time - just as one example I think he was a better, more talented, all-round footballer than Gento who is a legend albeit in a lesser sense than team-mates Di Stefano and Puskas.

Weah vs Romario/Batistuta - Again I am making my judgments/estimations mainly considering prime form and in/around 1995 this one wouldn't be seen as such a surprising choice IMO. Looking at gpg perhaps it would, but Batistuta was as eligible for the Ballon D'or as Weah was that year (as was Romario but not in 1994 when his case would've been much greater). Weah was much more than just a goalscorer and he could also score on his own from a starting position well outside the penalty area (sometimes nearer his own area). Whether those advantages should put him ahead of those 2 more specialised goalscorers is debateable but in prime form I felt he was worth it and at that time I think many would have agreed including those who did vote when he won that Ballon D'or.

Thanks.
Sort of regretting coming back to my ranking again lol, but ok I have to expect comments if I do so.
That is my honest reasoning anyway.

 

Now we agree on everything Peru .
No seriously, I will come back to your points as not everything can be explained by my comments about eras or even prime form. Of course everyone will disagree with everyone else to an extent but I'll provide some thoughtful (hopefully) replies.

And, yes feel free to extend your list too - I know you've spent a lot of time researching etc and it'll be a really good addition. I'll count the players up to 128 as HM's for you as that's what I've done for my own vote now.

I think in terms of criteria yours are more similar, although not identical, to Dearman's (and probably msioux's) and I'm sure your lists are more similar than yours and mine (mine might be slightly closer to the World Soccer Century vote or Fifa 100 so maybe it is wrong lol - seriously I suppose if I'm reluctant to insert the older players high up without being convinced it will be more similar to those sorts of lists and further away from the IFFHS results or Brian Glanville's top 100 for example although he did have Weah at 37!). Still, you and Dearman have had some differences of opinion even so...

 

Just on Henrik Larsson again - not to backup my rating of him particularly but I did think it was interesting that he was given the Swedish Golden Player award at the time of Uefa's 50th anniversary by the Swedish FA. Over Brolin or Ralf Edstrom or Ibrahimovic certainly at that time might be expected, but over the 50's legends is the interesting part. I think perhaps Nordahl and maybe Liedholm too would've been getting past their very best by the start of the judging period (1953-2003) but it wouldn't have been a shock for one of them to be given the honour.

Also, on the South American players from the 40's and before I think it's interesting that Glanville and authors of some books I have also omitted the likes of Moreno and Zizinho from top 100's or collections of great players (while including Schiaffino and often Ademir for example still). I think the lack of exposure to players around the world would be a factor here and a reason why South Americans might omit famous European players too in similar lists. Nowadays we are all aware to an extent at least of Neymar (although someone like Oscar might come to the attention of Europeans when he signed for Chelsea) - individuals can also easily study in detail many matches from South America without too much trouble. In those days with more limited International football and certainly less experience of watching games from all over the world it's understandable why the differences in perceptions of the world's best players might exist. The author of one book I have (who seemingly did a lot of research wheras Glanville would've been mainly basing his views on his own experience I guess) did mention the opinion of some old-timer Argentines being that Moreno was better than Maradona but he still didn't list him in his top 100.

To pre-empt my reply to Peru, these discussions on PES stats pages about Weah and Milla are interesting to follow I think (and give both sides of the arguments):
http://pesstatsdatabase.com/viewtopic.php?f=186&t=3297&sid=05e0214d5541e37147603cf0ed66ef3d&start=20
http://pesstatsdatabase.com/viewtopic.php?f=185&t=3077

 

Actually I was unsure about copyright etc, but I think I should be safe to post a couple of the lists I mentioned (if you want to see the Glanville list btw check comme's post on a thread called 'Platini Top Ten All Time?' either by searching in Google or in Big Soccer searching posts by comme including Schiaffino for example; I think the thread starter was gmonn):

From David Lacey's book The All-Time World Cup (if anything I'm advertsing for him!):
1) Pele (Brazil)
2) Diego Maradona (Argentina)
3) Alfredo Di Stefano (Argentina/Spain/Colombia)
4) Franz Beckenbauer (West Germany - Germany)
5) Johan Cruyff (Holland)
6) Ferenc Puskas (Hungary)
7) George Best (Northern Ireland)
8) Garrincha (Brazil)
9) Michel Platini (France)
10) Bobby Charlton (England)
11) Lev Yashin (Russia - Soviet Union)
12) Gerd Muller (West Germany - Germany)
13) Eusebio (Portugal)
14) Juan Schiaffino (Uruguay/Italy)
15) Bobby Moore (England)
16) Didi (Brazil)
17) Johan Neeskens (Holland)
18) Lothar Matthaus (West Germany - Germany)
19) Franco Baresi (Italy)
20) Luis Monti (Argentina/Italy)
21) Obdulio Varela (Uruguay)
22) Zinedine Zidane (France)
23) Stanley Matthews (England)
24) Paolo Maldini (Italy)
25) Giussepe Meazza (Italy)
26) Marco van Basten (Holland)
27) Daniel Passarella (Argentina)
28) Ruud Gullit (Holland)
29) Carlos Alberto (Brazil)
30) Jose Leandro Andrade (Uruguay)
31) Denis Law (Scotland)
32) Matthias Sindelar (Austria)
33) Jose Nasazzi (Uruguay)
34) Marcel Desailly (France)
35) Ademir (Brazil)
36) Nilton Santos (Brazil)
37) Gordon Banks (England)
38) Gerson (Brazil)
39) Zico (Brazil)
40) Ernst Ocwirk (Austria)
41) Helmut Rahn (West Germany - Germany)
42) Silvio Piola (Italy)
43) Romario (Brazil)
44) Giacinto Facchetti (Italy)
45) Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (West Germany - Germany)
46) Dino Zoff (Italy)
47) Kazimierz Deyna (Poland)
48) Gheorghe Hagi (Romania)
49) Francisco Gento (Spain)
50) Albert Shesternev (Russia - Soviet Union)
51) Sandor Kocsis (Hungary)
52) Gunnar Nordahl (Sweden)
53) Ricardo Zamora (Spain)
54) Raymond Kopa (France)
55) Roberto Baggio (Italy)
56) Rivaldo (Brazil)
57) Germano (Portugal)
58) Jozsef Bozsik (Hungary)
59) Luis Figo (Portugal)
60) Frank Rijkaard (Holland)
61) Jurgen Klinsmann (West Germany - Germany)
62) Mario Kempes (Argentina)
63) Ronaldo (Brazil)
64) Luis Suarez (Spain)
65) Roberto Rivelino (Brazil)
66) Mario Zagallo (Brazil)
67) Kenny Dalglish (Scotland)
68) Dragoslav Sekularec (Yugoslavia)
69) Mario Coluna (Portugal)
70) Wolfgang Overath (West Germany - Germany)
71) Ruud Krol (Holland)
72) Fritz Walter (West Germany - Germany)
73) Frantisek Planicka (Czech Republic - Czechoslovakia)
74) Silvio Marzolini (Argentina)
75) Gianni Rivera (Italy)
76) Elias Figueroa (Chile)
77) Florian Albert (Hungary)
78) Kurt Hamrin (Sweden)
79) Josef Masopust (Czech Republic - Czechoslovakia)
80) Hector Scarone (Uruguay)
81) Oldrich Nejedly (Czech Republic - Czechoslovakia)
82) Gabriel Batistuta (Argentina)
83) Gzregorz Lato (Poland)
84) Wim van Hanegem (Holland)
85) Teofilo Cubillas (Peru)
86) Marco Tardelli (Italy)
87) Duncan Edwards (England)
88) Alex James (Scotland)
89) Uwe Seeler (West Germany - Germany)
90) Jairzinho (Brazil)
91) Dragan Dzajic (Yugoslavia)
92) Gary Lineker (England)
93) Paul van Himst (Belgium)
94) Zoltan Czibor (Hungary)
95) Just Fontaine (France)
96) Gaetano Scirea (Italy)
97) Victor Rodriguez Andrade (Uruguay)
98) John Charles (Wales)
99) Roy Keane (Republic of Ireland)
100) Bernd Schuster (West Germany - Germany)

From the Greatest Football Players of All Time book published by Southwater (quite a lot of British players):
Florian Albert
Jose Altafini
Osvaldo Ardiles
Roberto Baggio
Gordon Banks
Franco Baresi
Cliff Bastin
Gabriel Batistuta
Jim Baxter
Franz Beckenbauer
David Beckham
Dennis Bergkamp
George Best
Danny Blanchflower
Oleg Blokhin
Zbigniew Boniek
Liam Brady
Billy Bremner
Emilio Butragueno
Eric Cantona
Roberto Carlos
Carlos Alberto
John Charles
Bobby Charlton
Ray Clemence
Mario Coluna
Johan Cruyff
Teofilo Cubillas
Zoltan Czibor
Kenny Dalglish
Edgar Davids
Alessandro Del Piero
Kazimierz Deyna
Didi
Alfredo Di Stefano
Dixie Dean
Dragan Dzajic
Duncan Edwards
Stefan Effenberg
Eusebio
Giacinto Facchetti
Giovanni Ferrari
Luis Figo
Tom Finney
Just Fontaine
Paulo Futre
Garrincha
Paul Gascoigne
Claudio Gentile
Francisco Gento
Ryan Giggs
Johnny Giles
Jimmy Greaves
Gunnar Gren
Ruud Gullit
Gheorghe Hagi
Kurt Hamrin
Alan Hansen
Ernst Happel
Johnny Haynes
Nandor Hidegkuti
Glenn Hoddle
Jairzinho
Alex James
Pat Jennings
Jimmy Johnstone
Nwankwo Kanu
Roy Keane
Kevin Keegan
Mario Kempes
Jurgen Klinsmann
Patrick Kluivert
Sandor Kocsis
Ronald Koeman
Raymond Kopa
Ruud Krol
Ladislav Kubala
Gzregorz Lato
Michael Laudrup
Denis Law
Tommy Lawton
Nils Liedholm
Gary Lineker
Sepp Maier
Paolo Maldini
Diego Maradona
Josef Masopust
Lothar Matthaus
Stanley Matthews
Sandro Mazzola
Billy McNeill
Giussepe Meazza
Roger Milla
Bobby Moore
Stan Mortensen
Gerd Muller
Johan Neeskens
Gunter Netzer
Gunnar Nordahl
Wolfgang Overath
Ariel Ortega
Michael Owen
Jean-Pierre Papin
Daniel Passarella
Pele
Michel Platini
Robert Prosinecki
Ferenc Puskas
Thomas Ravelli
Frank Rijkarrd
Luigi Riva
Rivaldo
Gianni Rivera
Paolo Rossi
Bryan Robson
Romario
Ronaldo
Karl-Heinz Rummenigge
Ian Rush
Matthias Sammer
Hugo Sanchez
Gyorgy Sarosi
Dejan Savicevic
Juan Schiaffino
Peter Schmeichel
Enzo Scifo
Uwe Seeler
Alan Shearer
Peter Shilton
Omar Sivori
Socrates
Graeme Souness
Hristo Stoichkov
Luis Suarez Miramontes
Davor Suker
Marco van Basten
Carlos Valderrama
Paul van Himst
Juan Sebastien Veron
Gianluca Vialli
Christian Vieri
George Weah
Billy Wright
Lev Yashin
Zico
Zinedine Zidane
Dino Zoff
Andoni Zubizarreta

 

Both those were published around 3 years or so into this Century. There is a list by FourFourTwo (published I think in 1997) that does include John Robertson in the top 100 I know, but I don't know any further details.

 

Coming back to your points Peru (I've numbered them to save time and I'll reply by number too):
1) My impression is certainly that Laudrup is not as good a goalscorer as any of those players (overall not as good or clinical/consistent a finisher irrespective of role) but more creative overall than any of them (Zico's passing may be in the same category, Puskas's imagination ditto, Ronaldo and Messi are probably better direct dibblers but not as good at gliding past players especially in wide areas and not as two-sided certainly especially Messi or as good at manipulating the ball in midfield). It's only my opinion but because of that I feel he isn't in a lower class than those players.

2) Again I think Baggio was overall (with occasional exceptions) the better finisher but Savicevic generally the better creator. I don't feel there's much difference in class overall when both were at their best and I guess if you understand I rate him as high as Baggio the other questions are answered too. Both Baggio and Savicevic had world-class spells in the early 90's and at times Savicevic did seem the better of the two (during '91, when both were at Milan).

3) I actually think Weah is much more similar as a player to Ronaldo and Eusebio than Muller (as do you probably but you rate Muller higher evidently) and that might partially explain why I don't rate him below the German - he could do a lot more himself - he was both creator and goalscorer in one partly because he was so skillful, quick and difficult to dispossess. My estimation is that on peak form he'd be at least as useful as Muller to a team though I could be wrong, he wouldn't be as reliable as a pure goalscorer of course and I completely understand why the way you do your rankings you'd have Muller comfortably ahead.

4) Difficult to compare an outright goalscorer to those players, but you'll understand the pattern of my ranking favouring creativity and team play and that might explain why I'd put those players not in an inferior group and even give them the edge over the prolific Brazilian.

5) I sometimes feel like as good as they are some former players get a legendary status that gives their name an aura of superiority to later players - Kopa was such a star in French football that maybe his reputation is even slightly beyond his abilities and effectiveness. I do think he was clearly an excellent player, a great passer with a sharp mind and quick feet. I also think Pires was a great player though, even Arsenal's best before his injury (though he continued to excel) and Henry's surge in form. Great goalscorer for a winger with great touch and very clever and accurate passes. A star for a great team unlucky to lose him to injury during the end of the 01/02 season. A similar placing to Dzajic seems feasible to me talent wise.

6) Like Larsson, Brian Laudrup is somewhat unproven because he played in his best period in Scotland but both at the time and since I've witnessed what a great talent he was. It never really went for him before he joined Rangers though he showed some star potential but in Scotland he was unbelievable. Also played very well at International level for a nation with only two world-class outfield players really during the 90's. Those Italians and Brazilians were part of great national teams, though due to era issue I might be conservative with their ranking but if anything there seems a bigger gap in favour of Laudrup's ability over Meazza's (the descriptions and record of Meazza sway me to put him in the same category though).

More to follow...

 

7) As hinted at before I just don't have the confirmation that those players were of a higher class than Caniggia. I understand Moreno's standing in particular and I could sort of verify his glowing references by seeing a few short clips of goals he scored - I understood he was a very skillful and mobile player by combining what I'd read and the goals I saw, but that was enough for a token inclusion but not to confirm a very high placing for me. Caniggia was a very rare player in that he had exceptional speed and combined it with world-class skill. For example Rommedahl is a decently skillful player and Overmars was a very good footballer but neither them nor any others I can think of that were as fast as Caniggia (assuming Henry isn't quite as quick) were so smooth on the ball. He could seemingly create chances at will at his very best by dribbling the ball then laying it off to a team-mate. He was great in Copa America '91 and very very good in World Cups. He actually starred more for Argentina than any of his Clubs. He did not have what you would call a great career so again I can understand why you'd put him outside the top 200 with all of your criteria considered. But as a talent he was very good indeed, though I still doubt whether I still have him a little high - perhaps I was even influenced by the combination of him appearing in World Soccer readers top 100 and my memories of his ability (including as a goalscorer for a forward whose best assets lay elsewhere really).

8) Dealt with I think. I can't verify McGrory really but don't believe he was the all-round talent that Larsson was but more of an old-fashioned British centre-forward albeit a very prolific one (allowing for era though maybe even less so than Larsson at Celtic in his prime?). btw the other Dane you mentioned with Elkjaer was a name I sort of recognised but don't know anything of and I can't remember if he was in comme's countdown actually - I guess the point was not that he is top 100/160 ever though but that all things considered you think he is more of a legend than Brian Laudrup. Just back on that one, Pele and Diego Maradona both rated Brian very highly I believe though his inclusion in Pele's Fifa 100 is perhaps not confirmation of much (I think the former players as he was at the time are less politically motivated choices and on less of a whim perhaps though in that list).

9) Very difficult - see PES link I posted. The thing is I really thought he was a very good and complete forward player with great skills and intelligence in 1990 which gives me a starting point that he can't fall below according to my criteria (although if a player is not consistent within his best period that is a negative factor of course). He actually moved to France approaching the stage of career that Shevchenko moved to Chelsea, but having said that it may well be that his best form was in the late 80's culminating in 1990 World Cup (I've only found very minimal footage including a goal in the French Cup Final, an assist in the African Nations Cup Final). He does seem to be a much better team player and all round talent than Eto'o to me though I accept not as prolific and probably never as quick.

10) See previous comments about era/confirming players for myself etc. I know he was a great player but I'm just not convinced how great. Robertson may seem like a biased Forest pick, but he really was seen as the best player in the sides that won the European Cups and League Championship (not Shilton or Francis for example). He was an unusual winger in that he was almost more of a playmaker with a deceptive style that allowed him to move past players in his own time. No Robertson = no trophies for Forest in the late 70's I think. Was overlooked for World Cup '78 largely by Scotland but I have difficulty understanding why other than that they had a settled side that played without him in the qualifiers and they seemed to prefer 4 central midfielders at times or 3 with 3 forwards.

11) I know Kocsis was an excellent player and goalscorer and have seen enough footage to understand his game I think. He played in a great national team in a free scoring era and that helped his totals of course. He had a very good touch, very good interaction with his team-mates and was great at scoring goals including famously with his head (Golden Head). The reasons I feel Shevchenko and also Klinsmann are ahead are about the capability for individuality I think:


Those are the sorts of goals I don't feel Kocsis would likely score judging by what I've seen (though his best goals could well be unknown to me) or read (there aren't stories of that sort of individual goal). Ok I could say the same about Stan Collymore vs Kocsis but I think both Shevchenko and Klinsmann were proven International players and exceptional finishers generally speaking.
Rossi above him is debateable but perhaps..perhaps he was a bit more mobile while being comparitively effective as a goalscorer at least in his best period. The eras are completely different in terms of gpg and Rossi had a ban to serve in the middle of his prime too.

12) I know Cubillas and the others were all exceptional players worthy of mention as all-timers. Maybe the era issue plus my perception legends may get an over-inflated reputation to an extent.

13) See 12. Where do you think he was better than Laudrup - consistency? Long range playmaking?

14) Era/lack of footage issue, but not convinced that he's quite one of the very best ever. Very difficult to give ranking to as mentioned, but knew he merited one somewhere.

15) The highest peak is my main criteria.

16) I actually think all those French defenders were important and high quality players. As a left-back or wing-back I do think Lizarazu was a stand-out player though - very skillful yet excellent defensively; obviously not as solid as Thuram, graceful as Blanc or dominating as Desailly but in his role maybe the best IMO..maybe.

Thanks Peru. Please not 16 more questions lol, but hopefully you understand my reasoning etc now.

 

I actually noticed that individual compilation vs Spain was available today. But I'd already seen the whole game thanks to yourself posting the link on Big Soccer (I'd recommend it as a good watch btw - several players getting votes in this thread participating). The individual compilation does highlight how well Kopa played though I think.

I think I came at the idea of ranking the players initially from a point slightly biased towards modern players (but considering I'm estimating their quality without accounting for era the fact I had from the start several players from 30's/40's/50's/60's could be seen to suggest I actually feel the players of those generations were not easily superceded in talent if you know what I mean - I think overall I have raised a few of the older players and added a few more as I learnt more about them). Of course I'm not really proclaiming Kopa to be the 72nd best player ever exactly and definately, and he has a good case to be higher maybe. I do think though that Pires was probably as much a star in the English game in the early 00's (having already shown very good promise in France and starred at times for the National Team) as Kopa was in Spain playing for Real Madrid ie both among the most highly revered players in the league but ultimately with team-mates that were even more highly regarded (Di Stefano, Puskas; Henry, Bergkamp although past his prime when Pires was there, arguably Vieira at times).

Kopa was clearly great in the '58 World Cup, although strangely Di Stefano seemed to be discarded for the Ballon D'or that year (he wasn't 2nd behind Kopa for example). Being voted first ahead of a team-mate (Fontaine) who scored 13 goals in the World Cup is impresssive in itself - it was rightly recognised that he was a big reason Fontaine could score so many though I'm sure.

Pires did win the Player of the Year award for 2001/2002 in England despite missing the end of the season and therefore the chance to star in the latter stages of the Champions League (haven't checked but don't think they'd been knocked out when he got injured). Sometimes there is a descrepency between national awards and the Ballon D'or and it seems to me he was a bit unlucky not to finish higher in the Ballon D'or results a couple of times.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3De18DJcbYQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5CZn-THW_4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5CZn-THW_4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlDEY4t-GBM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-_H9Et8aDU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq-bXt3jxH8
Pires is more familiar of course than Kopa but still thought these would make a good addition for anyone who does want to view them. Found some Confederations Cup 2001 footage. The last two videos are probably similar (goal 5 on the last one is similar to the Tottenham goal, which btw was from 2000/01 too, but against Chelsea - think he got more similar ones for example against Everton; couldn't find footage of maybe my favourite goal of his vs Blackburn in the FA Cup 2000/01 where he controls a pass in the air instantly and volleys into the far corner; left out a great goal vs Valencia in the Champions League that I know is available and along with some of the others I had posted on Excape Goat's Goal Archive thread before the switch-over on Big Soccer made that thread less viewable).

 

Thanks Peru for the reply. I think the only query for you I had in my answer was why you might rate Suarez ahead of Laudrup - I think there was a thread started by Dearman on that topic actually but I can't recall that there was much input from members about it.
Your codes for positions are in Peruvian I guess unless my computer is messing the screen up

 

Thanks Puck. That's true about Weah not taking penalties so in comparison to Van Basten or Shevchenko he doesn't have those few extra goals a season by scoring Milan's spot-kicks. MVB and Sheva were very good penalty kick takers though of course, in the main at least (Schmeichel made a great save in Euro '92, Dudek read a bit of an indecisive one from Sheva in the 2005 CL Final).