Comme, what a great thread! On your GK list: it's nice to see Spurs' very own Ted Ditchburn & Wolves legend Bertie Williams getting their due. Aside from that, you did a very good list. Any given fan can argue that any of those ratings can be juggled around a bit, but that's mostly personal preference IMHO. Oh, and I didn't catch your criteria in your rankings. Is this club career over international career, the reverse, or a combination of both?
[Bob Crompton at #3 on your list actually played as a RB in the "pyramid" formation, which made him much more like what we would call a RCB in modern terminolgy & positional role. In the pyramid/"classic" 2-3-5, the wing-halves (#s 4 & 6) actually marked the other side's wide-men and the full-backs functioned as central defenders. Whether you want Armfield or Neal in the #1 slot is essentially a toss-up. Armfield was more successful w/England & Neal had the better club career, etc. I suppose that a lot of it would come down to which type of RB that you wanted in your starting XI/squad. But, I'm just trying to help out w/some input, rank your lists however you please, Comme.]
[I'll use this as my intial take on your LB list, comme. Selecting between Byrne & Hapgood for the #1 LB slot is a tough one. I might narrowly give it to Hapgood due to his greater success at club level (which simply highlights how tragically that we lost Byrne) & the fact that he, w/tactical input from George Allison, Charlie Buchan, & Chapman, layed some serious groundwork in inventing the wing-back position about 30+ years before anyone had ever heard of it. As a Toon fan, it's great to see Newcastle's Billy McCracken mentioned on your list. But, like Bob Crompton, he's another one of those pyramid formation full-backs who actually played as a central defender, not a wide one. It's also nice to see 'Boro & England captain George Hardwick listed, but his picture is actually one of Wilf Mannion. Here's a picture of Hardwick & and an excellent interview feature from BBC Radio: http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/football_legends/11905.shtml (Btw anyone who likes this thread and hasn't already MUST check out the rest of the site on the link above.) Comme, I hope that it doesn't sound as if I'm nit-picking because I really do rate this thread, mate.]
[That's one to lanman for mentioning the VASTLY under-rated England legend Raich Carter! This site is a great resource for pre-war British & Irish football greats and the information is more accurate than Wikipedia. You can use the search feature or just scroll down for the club, manager, player, etc. of your choice: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/ENCfootball.htm Make sure that you scroll clear down on the profile pages since the author includes extra written information, sometimes even drawn from contemporary sources.]
[A question for you, Comme: dyk that players like Alex Raisbeck & John Hill were actually attacking centre-halves in the pyramid formation? They played much more like what we could call a deep-lying playmaker than as central defenders. Great inclusions of Mel Charles, Stan Cullis, Neil Franklin, & Syd Owen; Stan especially gets so under-rated these days & he couldn't help it that the war effectively ruined his career. Two more names that you might want to consider for this list is Mel's brother, John Charles & Blackpool captain Harry Johnston. Here's an excellent profile on Johnston w/the likes of "Electric Eel" Mortensen & Sir Stan testifying to his greatness: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/BLACKPjohnson.htm Choosing between Sir Bobby & Billy Wright in the #1 spot is a real poser. I'm surprised that more posters haven't commented on it yet!]
Big Al kidz... ...I could write down words for the rest of my life and I'd not even come close to describing what a tres-bon footballer he was...Eric Cantona?...Fu*k off please...The French bastard... Ps - Neil Lennon...That Celtic Manager might disagree the fu*king fanny kidz... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss_7WGYa9nQ"]YouTube- Neil Lennon heinously headbutts Alan Shearer's foot[/ame]
It was only including domestic club performances in England. So international performances, those in Europe and performances abroad don't count. Don't apologise for nitpicking by the way either. Really good to have the thoughts of someone who saw a lot more of many of these players than myself.
[Nice to see names likes Brian LaBone, Maurice Norman & Dave Watson on your list since I think that they often get under-rated, especially @ the club/lge. level. One name that I didn't see on either list ("C-Hs" & "CBs/"stoppers") was Bolton & Sheff. Utd. cult hero Malcolm Barras. He was both a hard-nosed stopper & quite good going forward as well, so it's difficult to know which list he would be in contention for IMO. He was so versatile that he started his pro career as a Drake-mould No.9 w/Bolton in '44. In '51 (IIRC) he once replaced the injured Nat Lofthouse in the Bolton XI and scored FOUR goals in a 5-1 rout of Man. City. Here's a profile on Barras fr. Spartacus Schoolnet: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/BOLTONbarras.htm Speaking of being a versatile footballer: Emlyn Hughes is another player who's difficult to place because he was VERY versatile. Your placing & ranking of Sol Campbell & McFarland could be debated, but, once again, that could be said of any project of this nature IMO. I'll try to give you some more feedback, including digging up other contenders from the past, when I get a chance, Comme.]
[I can probably help out on this question, comme. If you want to hear it I can try to break down and explain the different types of wing-halves so that all of you might be able to understand why blokes as different as Blanchflower, Ronnie Clayton & Jimmy Dickinson all played seemingly the same position. I'm also trying to get started on your A-T DM list, comme.]
I've been following football since the late 80s, and IMO these are the best English players since then per position: Goalkeepers - Shilton, James, Seaman (IMO the best I've ever seen from England in my football lifetime), Flowers, Martyn Defenders - Winterburn, Dixon, Adams, Keown, Bould, Terry, Ferdinand, Cole, Pallister, Bruce, Campbell, Neville, Pearce Midfielders - Beckham, Gazza, Lampard, Gerrard, Ince, Scholes, Butt, Robson Strikers - Shearer, Lineker, Wright, Ferdinand (,i.e. Les, not Rio), Andy Cole, Fowler, Sheringham
[Idk if darcgun realizes that this is supposed to be All-Time Football Lge. positional rankings, NOT for the England NT side.]
[Mannion played a position known as the "conventional" or "orthodox" inside-forward in those days. It was essentially a blending of AM & SS in modern terminology, rather like the "ponta-da-lanca" or "lance-point" role in Brazilian football. Mannion would've definitely fallen quite squarely into your "forward" category, comme.]
Interesting. I'd never heard of Barras. Seems to have been a quality player. Definitely. Would be interesting to get your take on it.
[Bloomer played in an era when it was actually harder for individuals, especially forwards, to score because he played out his entire career before the '25 change in the offside law. I'm sure that Bloomer's success at club level also led to comme ranking Bloomer where he did as well.]
[Because the EPL didn't officially start tracking the assist stat until the '00-'01 season & Shearer's top flight professional career started in Mar. of '88. Besides, until football actually starts tracking the assist stat properly like it's done in ice hockey (they created the stat) I think that it's of dubious use in football anyway.]
[What "advanced level of play" are you talking about here? It makes me laugh when people just throw out these assertions that the modern EPL is supposedly superior or on a higher competitive level than ANY era of the old 1st Div. As if simply saying it makes it so... So, you must have watched loads of live football back in the Football Lge. of the '40s, 50s & '60s then, mate? ]
[Since you want to go the goals-per-season route: Bill "Dixie" Dean once had SIXTY league goals in a SINGLE seasson & he did it while being expected to carry a wider role in the attack than Shearer did because Dean was a "pyramid-mould" No.9 playing in the "classic" form. Now we already know that that you're going to whip out your slide rule & show us how Wile E. Coyote was the mastermind behind the JFK assassination. ]
Are you saying that player from that era would be effective in the premiership today? Are you saying that the game has not evolved from those days? You are on crack if you think either of those are true! It would be laughable to see almost 99% of them players trying to play in the league today ,absolutely comical! It's night and day ,faster , stronger ,quicker, bigger and more technical! If you just take into consideration that a player as prolific as michael owen was,he gets injured for about a year comes back and has not been able to look even remotely like what he was before.The league has changed so much in the last 3 years let alone 20 or 30 !