[R] US vs. Guatemala - Rate the Players

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by lmorin, Nov 20, 2008.

  1. lmorin

    lmorin Member+

    Mar 29, 2000
    New Hampshire
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Go for it.

    For a bit of reference, here are Jack Bell's ratings. See his article in the NYTimes for explanations.

    Brad Guzan: 6
    Jonathan Bornstein: 4
    Clarence Goodson: 5
    Michael Parkhurst: 5
    John Thorrington: 5
    Ricardo Clark: 6
    Freddy Adu: 7
    Pablo Mastroeni: 4
    Sacha Kljestan: 7
    Davy Arnaud: NR
    Jozy Altidore: 7
    Kenny Cooper: 7
    Brian Ching: NR
    Conor Casey: NR


    Bob Bradley: 7
     
  2. silverlion

    silverlion Member

    Nov 23, 2001
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Brad Guzan: 7 (Looked confident)
    Jonathan Bornstein: 4
    Clarence Goodson: 5
    Michael Parkhurst: 6 (I thought he did well to cover for Bornstein)
    John Thorrington: 5
    Ricardo Clark: 6
    Freddy Adu: 7
    Pablo Mastroeni: 4
    Sacha Kljestan: 7
    Davy Arnaud: NR
    Jozy Altidore: 7
    Kenny Cooper: 7
    Brian Ching: NR
    Conor Casey: NR


    Bob Bradley: 6 (One point off for not bringing Torres)
     
  3. fatbastard

    fatbastard Member+

    Aug 1, 2003
    Lincoln (ish), Va
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Brad Guzan: 5 - one good save, one sketchy rebound, organized well
    Jonathan Bornstein: 5 -solid
    Clarence Goodson: 5 - needs work, nice to see him building some muscle
    Michael Parkhurst: 6 - led the back well
    John Thorrington: 6 - I kept saying "who's #5, good positioning"
    Ricardo Clark: 5 - eh, did get some possession at the end
    Freddy Adu: 7 - not bad, nice free kick, still gets shoved off the ball so easily
    Pablo Mastroeni: 4 - point off for continuing to have stupid rough fouls
    Sacha Kljestan: 7 - nice work rate, good crosses, good possession
    Davy Arnaud: NR - he played?
    Jozy Altidore: 6 - decent, still throws himself down too much, great assist
    Kenny Cooper: 7 - good work, nice runs, excellent technique on goal
    Brian Ching: 4 - definite drop in activity up front when he came on
    Conor Casey: 4 - not inspired, looks stupid bald


    Bob Bradley: 5 - kept kids grounded after halftime, I'll give him that - subs made me say "huh?"
     
  4. AmeriMex

    AmeriMex Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Orange County, Calif
    Brad Guzan: 6 - Not really tested, stopped a rocket late
    Jonathan Bornstein: 4 looked terrible out there
    Clarence Goodson: 6 surprised me, has learned a bit since last year
    Michael Parkhurst: 6 solid, silky smooth
    John Thorrington: 6 great overlaps, weaker on the D. Lets see him again
    Ricardo Clark: 7 Paired with Mastro they owned the middle
    Freddy Adu: 7.5 creative force, with Sasha a nice pair
    Pablo Mastroeni: 7 Loved how he handled the middle, the yellow was weak from the Ref who had a bad night
    Sacha Kljestan: 7 I like how he plays in tight spaces
    Jozy Altidore: 7 Showed flashes, glimpses of what he is to become
    Kenny Cooper: 7 A bit fortunate on the goal, but a great effort
    Brian Ching: NR
    Conor Casey: NR
    Davy Arnaud: NR

    Bob Bradley: 9 Give Bradley props for trotting out that lineup with both Cooper and Jozy starting. As well as trying Thorington in the back, and flipping Sacha and Adu to their 'off foot' side. With Clark and Pablo securing the middle the strategy was interestng. Say what you will about Bob, this lineup in those positions at least made this game, "just a rung up from a friendly" interesting.
     
  5. Claymore

    Claymore Member

    Jul 9, 2000
    Montgomery Vlg, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agree with everything here except the ratings for Pablo and Kenny.

    OK, Pablo continues to make stupid fouls, but I thought the yellow was kind of soft. Other than that, he had a pretty good game; I'd give him a 6

    Other than the goal, I wasn't impressed with Cooper. His first touch just flat sucks and killed at least two good opportunities. He held the ball well, however, so I'd give him a 6 as well.

    Also, I thought Freddy wasn't getting knocked off the ball as much as usual, but the Guatemalan players were all about his size anyway.
     
  6. ATLGunner

    ATLGunner Member

    May 8, 2005
    Atlanta
    Everyone keeps citing Torres, but he's in the playoffs! Same with Orozco, and the same reason he didn't bring Marshall and Rogers.

    He would have, but Bradley wasn't going to waste political capital on a meaningless game.
     
  7. DaMa

    DaMa Member

    Jun 17, 2002
    New York

    Really, 7s for both the central midfielders? I think one of us needs to watch that game again. The turnovers from the middle of the field for us struck me as almost constant. There was one stretch in the 2nd half where Rico turned the ball over 3 times in a 10 second period. I don't see how either of these guys rate more than a 5.
     
  8. silverlion

    silverlion Member

    Nov 23, 2001
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Someone sent me a PM telling me that Torres is injured, but his team didn't make he playoffs.

    BB still deserves a point off for taking off Jozy and Adu in the same game.
     
  9. lmorin

    lmorin Member+

    Mar 29, 2000
    New Hampshire
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Brad Guzan: 6
    Jonathan Bornstein: 4.5
    Clarence Goodson: 5.5
    Michael Parkhurst: 6
    John Thorrington: 5.5
    Ricardo Clark: 6
    Freddy Adu: 6.5
    Pablo Mastroeni: 6
    Sacha Kljestan: 6
    Davy Arnaud: NR
    Jozy Altidore: 7
    Kenny Cooper: 6.5
    Brian Ching: NR
    Conor Casey: NR
     
  10. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    I use the 6 point average system.

    Guzan 6
    Thorrington 5
    Goodson 5.5
    Parkhurst 5.5
    Bornstein 4.5
    Mastroeni 5.5
    Clark 6
    Kljestan 7
    Adu 8
    Altidore 7
    Cooper 7 (the goal and work rate... I just can't give him lower)

    Ching 6
    Casey 5.5
    Arnaud NR

    MOTM: Jerez (8)
     
  11. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This game was real simple to rate:

    4 = Bornstein.

    5 = Guzan, Thorington, Goodson, Parkhurst, Clark, and Mastro.

    7 = Adu, Altidore, Kljestan, and Cooper.

    NR = the subs.

    (By the way, Kljestan's first half was totally dominant, almost a 9, but he was more average in the second half.)

    BB also gets a 7 for a creative lineup and interesting experiments of Thorrington at RB, Adu and Kljestan swapped to the less obvious sides, and both Altidore and Cooper up top.

    Sure Guatemala wasn't a good side and we had them on US soil, but this US B/C squad was very entertaining while also remaining fairly composed and organized.
     
  12. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    Entertaining, I'd agree with. Composed and organized I disagree, particularly in the middle/back. It looked somewhat like our U20 and U23 sides, actually. (Not all that surprising given the personnel.)
     
  13. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Please note that I wrote "fairly composed". ;)

    Considering that this was an entirely new US backline and that the key central mid pairing hasn't played together since the Mexico match in February of 2007, I'd still say it was fairly composed.

    Everything is relative. :D
     
  14. Bigrose30

    Bigrose30 Member+

    Sep 11, 2004
    Jersey City, NJ
    Guzan - 6 - Rusty. Has to get games to be a viable #2 for the US.

    Goodison - 6 - Strong in the air. Looked a touch slow, but rarely challenged.

    Parkhurst - 8 - Always there to snuff out the danger.

    Bornstein - 5 - Looked very rusty, but still better than Heath Pearce. Will win the spot back when in form.

    Thorrington - 6 - Very promising, but won't get a chance to learn to play right back.

    Clark - 6 - Little to do. Tackled well but looked uncomfortable when asked to advance.

    Mastroeni - 7 - Still a viable option. Looked surprisingly good on the ball. Yellow card starts him off on the wrong foot for next year though.

    Klejstan - 7 - Great motor, doesn't lose the ball off the dribble, lives for the great pass, often flubs the simple pass.

    Adu - 7 - Twice the technical ability of Sacha with half the motor. Hits a dangerous left footed inswinger consistently. Brilliantly taken goal. Somebody get this kid some games!

    Cooper - 7 - A clever passer who has nice pace for a big man. Linked up very well with Jozy, and finished his chance well. Can he repeat this performance against defenders who aren't scared to death of him? He'll get his chance.

    Altidore - 7 - Always dangerous, always moving with a purpose. Some lucky team is in for a serious treat if he gets loaned out.

    Subs didn't really do much, as the Guats were launching long balls by that time.
     
  15. camasterton

    camasterton Member

    Jun 26, 2001
    North Carolina
    Taking into account their present form including this match and the coaches' apparent team concepts, I graded the players based on who could move into the starting 11 if the 4-4-2 from last night was employed in the Hexegonal.
    Brad Guzan: a downgrade from Howard
    Jonathan Bornstein: sadly a downgrade from Pearce
    Clarence Goodson: a downgrade from Onyewu
    Michael Parkhurst: comp to Bocanegra
    John Thorrington: a downgrade from Cherundolo
    Ricardo Clark: a slight downgrade from Edu
    Freddy Adu: a downgrade from Donovan
    Pablo Mastroeni: a downgrade from Bradley
    Sacha Kljestan: in the starting 11 (or an upgrade from Beasley)
    Jozy Altidore: an upgrade from Beasley (or an upgrade from Ching)
    Kenny Cooper: an upgrade from Johnson
    In other formations, Cooper would be dropped in favor of Dempsey, Beasley, Adu...)
    Based on last night et al, I can see Parkhurst pushing Bocanegra to left full, with Kljestan, Altidore and Cooper starting a "real" qualifyer.
    Howard
    Cherundolo Onyewu Parkhurst Bocanegra
    Donovan Bradley Edu Kljestan
    Altidore Cooper
     
  16. USA2010?

    USA2010? Member

    Mar 23, 2006
    I think you are comparing the wrong guys, other than the back line.

    Also, I think people tend to dump on Boca, but he's generally steady, can pass well from the back - during the T&T game he and Gooch mainly passed on the ground to the MFs - a big improvement. Also, if the guy is so bad, why is he starting in Ligue 1? Also, as weak as we are on the left flank (Pearce and Bornstein), we'd be weaker with Boca. For now, if we drop Pearce, we lose a lot. So, if we want to look at how strong the team really is, our starting left back can't even crack a starting line up in BDL2. Ouch.

    I wouldn't say Donovan over Adu. I'd say the top three should be Altidore, Adu, AND Donovan. Donovan and Adu are different players. I thought Cooper showed why he has not been called up previously - his first touch is poor at best. He needs to keep the ball at his feet. Jozy's skill seems to have improved significantly since he left for Spain. He's a much, much better player today than he was 6 months ago.
     
  17. camasterton

    camasterton Member

    Jun 26, 2001
    North Carolina
    I wasn't dumping on Boca nor any tohers for that matter. I just thought Parkhurst looked assured (comparable to Boca). Obviously 5 or more middie formation adds Adu... over Cooper but if "that" formation is used, Adu becomes redundant to Donovan. As for Cooper, I disagree about his touch. An early few went awry but he held, went at defenders, finished, positioned, passed and crossed as good as any forward we've seen this year.
     
  18. USA2010?

    USA2010? Member

    Mar 23, 2006
    I just don't see Adu and Donovan being similar players. If you had to compare one to Riquelme, it would be Adu. (I wish we had a player half as good as Riquelme) Adu is much better at finding the seam than Donovan is. I'd say Adu probably has the best vision of any player we have. That doesn't mean he has no flaws.
    Donovan has better speed. Adu might beat someone over a ten yard run, but that's about it. He's quick, but not fast. Donovan, however, can beat someone at any distance. If we really are going to develop a lethal attack, then I believe we need both out there. In addition, from what we've seen so far (MNT and club) Altidore so far is much better than anyone we've ever had up front, hands down...and he just turned 19. Let's hope he gets loaned out this January so he gets some minutes.
    This is why I think Altidore, Adu, and Donovan is our best front 3. You can then put Beasley, Bradley, and Kljestan/Dempsey in the middle. I think Edu still has a few years to go - too inconsistent so far, though I do think he will get there.
     
  19. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    You think? Frankly I've thought Pearce to have performed throughout this round--even in the first Guatemala match which was definitely his worst--better than Bornstein ever has in his time with the nats (not only yesterday, it would be unfair to grade him solely on his first match back), in almost every category.

    Not so much a case of Pearce having been awesome. More like a case of Pearce having been decent, and Bornstein occasionally looking dangerous and more frequently looking completely out of sorts and confused, and posing a distinct danger to our own back line.
     
  20. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    This is just it in my mind, precisely.

    KC does indeed have a lot to offer, I think. Particularly his killer instincts, his deft touches, his enthusiastic, physical, aggressive play. But his first touch is going to let him down at this level. (If the Guatemalan defenders weren't caught so much on the back foot, Cooper would not have had the chance to do much last night the way his first touch was getting away from him.) I'm rating him above EJ, but I think it's premature to crown him the next go-to striker for us. You know what other slowish forward who was a great MLS finisher had this same problem, which slowed down the play and rarely got enough time in front of goal to finish effectively? Taylor Twellman.

    Mind you, I'm rating Cooper well above Twellman, before everybody gets themselves in a twist.

    Jozy, on the other hand, is definitely looking the part.

    I wish we could've seen Davies.
     
  21. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    I understand what you mean.
     
  22. galaxyfan03

    galaxyfan03 Member

    Jul 4, 2001
    Glendale, California
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Brad Guzan - 6
    Jonathan Bornstein - 4
    Clarence Goodson - 6
    Michael Parkhurst - 6
    John Thorrington - 6
    Ricardo Clark - 7
    Freddy Adu - 7
    Pablo Mastroeni - 6
    Sacha Kljestan - 8
    Davy Arnaud - INC
    Jozy Altidore - 8
    Kenny Cooper - 7
    Brian Ching - INC
    Conor Casey - INC

    IMO, Jozy & Sacha were the co-MOTM, with Cooper & Freddy close behind!!
     
  23. USA2010?

    USA2010? Member

    Mar 23, 2006
    Does this mean you're rating KC above or at the same level as the forward on my kid's U10 team?
     
  24. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    LOL.

    I'm just pointing out a glaring problem that was evident yesterday. I was actually highly tempted to give Cooper a lower rating because of it, but his enthusiastic, aggressive attacking and the fact that he did in fact score and break the deadlock means I really can't justify less than a 7, even if the same performance would have resulted in a lot of dispossessions against a good defense.
     
  25. quick38

    quick38 New Member

    Feb 13, 2007
    Considering the opponent didn't come out with much and frankly expected allot more for a team fighting for a spot. Was a little tough on the rankings.

    Brad Guzan: 6 - Stopped a rocket late but didn't have to do much.
    Jonathan Bornstein: 4 Has nice speed, but gets bumped off the ball way to much. Someone please order him the perfect pushup so he can bulk up a bit.
    Clarence Goodson: 6 Thought he was solid and cleared the ball in his area.
    Michael Parkhurst: 5 Needs to win more balls on set pieces as a central defender.
    John Thorrington: 6 Was the biggest suprise for me in the game. Played a good overall game for the most part. Got caught out of position a couple times, but for a guy that doesn't play right back all the time, figured that would happen.
    Ricardo Clark: 6 Had a good overall game, but after watching him against England, he is nothing more than a Concacaf Qualifying player.
    Freddy Adu: 7 Played better as the game went on, especially when he took on defenders.
    Pablo Mastroeni: 5 Thought he had a solid overall game, but getting that yellow card was a dumb play. Like the red against Italy.
    Sacha Kljestan: 6 Very active and had a nice game. But I worry about his lack of pace against much better teams.
    Jozy Altidore: 7 Solid game, and can't wait to see how he develops his game further in Spain.
    Kenny Cooper: 7 Should have scored on the header, but did get his goal. Looked like a guy who hasn't played a competitive game in almost a month.
    Brian Ching: NR Didn't see enough to rate.
    Conor Casey: NR "
    Davy Arnaud: NR "
     

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