Teaching as a second career

Discussion in 'Education and Academia' started by RBourd52, Jun 2, 2006.

  1. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Did you explain that to her? Or did you just punish her for not having the same value system as yourself?

    Because, on one hand, you're punishing Girl #1 for breaking a school rule - regardless of personal values. She wasn't disrupting class or cheating by using the cell phone. No "moral code" was broken with cell phone use.

    But, on the other hand, you're punishing a girl who has broken no school rule, based on your "moral value system".

    That doesn't seem consistent to me and the kids will see that, too. Which is why they said it was "stupid". Kids DO have the same values as adults. They just don't have the same value system as you.
     
  2. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    of course.

    not true. several kids knew she was texting someone. that's disruptive.

    the only way to look at this as not breaking a moral code is to say that it's civil disobedience. if you know it's wrong, it's immoral to do it.

    our sense of values differs.

    the school has a no cell phone policy. it's not negotiable.

    you're greatly deceived about kids' value systems. many kids think it's only wrong if you get caught.

    if you think it's OK to act as a lookout when someone is doing something that everyone knows is against the rules, then you and i don't have the same value system. i'm completely comfortable with disciplining someone who acts as a lookout for someone breaking a rule.

    the girl who said "That's stupid" was disrespectful. she probably thinks the no cell phone policy is stupid, too
     
  3. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't you think it's a bit presumptuous to presume I condone the girls' behaviors?
     
  4. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    you said this:
    and this:
    i thought your message was clear. you thought i was arbitrarily imposing a value system that makes no sense. you never suggested that you agreed with my decisions.
     
  5. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So, anyone that doesn't openly agree with you is automatically labeled as someone who disagrees?

    I would guess that the students see an inconsistency in being punished for not agreeing with your basic moral codes and school codes. Now, chances are most of the students will rebel against you even if they agree with your moral codes.

    Basically, you've undermined your ability to positively influence their behaviors. It's similar to the way you've labeled me as "opposition", when in fact I agree with your idea, but not your punishment.
     
  6. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    you had the opportunity to say "I don't think I would have done what you did, but I understand your thinking." something that showed you found my actions reasonable.

    but from the outset, you acted like you thought i was unreasonable, arbitrary and your statement ("you've undermined...") expresses to me that you find fault with my approach.

    at some point i have to think that you don't agree with my disciplining of the lookout girl. i explained at some length to the students why her behaviour should not be acceptable to teenagers and why i think they think it is. the larger percentage of students don't like the way that works, but they can respect it. some of the kids don't respect it, but they think that music that talks about bitches and hoes is cool, and that includes upper middle class white girls.
     
  7. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As if before the invention of hip-hop upper middle class WHITE girls didn't have a reason to degrade themselves?

    Did you forget what it was like to be a teenager? Or did you grow up on Mars?
     
  8. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    when i was a teenager, you hadn't been born yet. hooking up was something that kids didn't regale. the only drug available to most upper middle class white girls was alcohol. most girls understood the value of modesty. almost nobody cut themselves to get attention. spending a month in rehab wasn't a status symbol. you couldn't buy a record that had a parental advisory because no one would use that kind of language in a recording. there was no such thing as AIDS.

    i grew up in Long Beach, California. i delivered newspapers on my bike. when i was a senior in high school, i took a cough syrup bottle, cleaned it out, filled it with Jim Beam and was going to take it to a football game. i showed the bottle to a friend, and he told me to leave it behind because i would get the guys i was going with into trouble.

    my mom found out and made me go apologize to each of the parents of the boys in the car. she told me not to come home until i had done that. i didn't know all of their addresses. it took me 6 hours.

    you're 27. i'm 63. you have a lot of living to do before you're the age i am now. my guess is that you are a tremendously thoughtful young man. i've read dozens of your posts and most of the time i agree with you. you've been charitable with me in the past, and i've appreciated that.

    we seem to have a different slant on this issue. maybe we can let it go at that.

    i hope you can see that i remember what it was like to be a teenager.
     
  9. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  10. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    LOL. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but this story made me smile. If that's what constitutes disrespectful behavior in your classroom, then keep up the good work. You have it very easy.

    It doesn't matter if a moral code was being broken. A rule was being broken. Helping another student to get away with breaking a school rule is in itself breaking a school rule, and every teenager of every background knows that. The teenagers may choose to believe that certain rules are unfair or not morally founded, and that's their choice. But theyare still subject to those rules, regardless of their personal moral codes. If they choose to break the rules, they will face consequences.

    That's a valuable life lesson that teens need to learn. Stilton's choice to be strict in enforcing the rules sends a clear message to the kids: if you make a choice that you know is in violation of school policies, you will pay a price for it. Now the children can make their choices. There is nothing arbitrary about that and it has nothing to do with personal values.


    Stilton, you should remember that your experience of being a teenager was not universal. There were plenty of teens in the 50's and 60's who didn't understand the value of modesty. There was teen drinking and sex just as there is today. There were gangs, juvenile delinquents and teen pregnancies. There may not have been AIDS, but there were plenty of STD's. Those things may not have been part of your experience, and they weren't part of my experience in the 1990's either. That has nothing to do with the times or society. It's only a function of us being lucky enough to come from good, strong families who taught us good values and shielded us from the worst of life. Most kids aren't so lucky, and that's always been true.
     
  11. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    oh, yeah, i dig it. i teach in a very privileged post. but the "that's stupid" girl will get into a snit at the drop of a hat. i've seen that in the first week. she's smart. may get an "A", but she's got some anger toward authority.


    it takes more energy to fight the rules than to comply. part of the attraction is to see an adult fume, i figure.

    if a kid spends three weeks with me, that kid will see that i am a real person with real expectations. i can be tough, gentle, compassionate, malleable, generous, fickle and inflexible. one lesson i teach them is that being up front will almost always pay off in grace given. i love sincere apologies. both ways.


    you're not auld enow to have lived thru those years, but you're correct. the school i teach in now is different from the school that i attended. we had no blacks, Hispanic, Asians, few Jews, no Muslims, and there were no gangs. the closest to a gang was a car club. scary.

    i know that there were gangs 20+ miles away: White Fence, Clanton, El Hoyo Maravilla. Black gangs of any consequence didn't hit LA until after the Watts riots.
     
  12. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree. I just felt that he reacted based the moral implications of the act and nothing else.

    That is what I think the students will never get. If they don't see the behavior as morally reprehensible, they will begin to question why they have to conform to "Substitute Teacher X's Personal Honor Code" ON TOP OF school regulations.

    Demo, I'd like to bring it back to something you've noted earlier - physical confrontation. Could we tell a student that physical confrontation is wrong [and expect it to work] if that student is being physically abused at home or facing physical confrontations on a daily basis from his parents, siblings, or peers.

    These kids may live in a morally corrupt and indignant society. But, to punish them for that is wrong. I feel it is most appropriate to respect their social environment [right or wrong] and get them to analyze and question it for themselves. That's the only way, IMO.
     
  13. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i don't get this. where is the wrong in reacting to the moral implications of the act? should i have ignored her trying to keep the other girl from getting caught? is that a lesson that you would want to teach 14-17 year olds?

    tacitly or directly suggest that if someone is doing something you know is wrong, you should protect them from the consequences.
     
  14. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why can't you separate the act of violating a rule and its moral implications. Moral codes vary based on cultures. Obviously, based on your age, upbringing, own personal admission - your moral code is different from your students.

    You're well withing your right to punish the girl for trying to "help" her friend - if she is breaking a school rule. However, your judgment is clouded by your negative feelings toward the moral disregard the students exhibit. My opinion? So f'n what? Punish the kids for breaking rules, explain to them why it's important to respect your interpretation of the rules. Where's the consistency if every teacher uses their own personal honor code to punish students? And, inconsistency is what turns off students. No matter how correct you are, they will fight you tooth and nail - just because.
     
  15. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If I'm understanding what you're saying, then I have to disagree with you. Getting kids to reflect and analyze their own values is absolutely necessary, but it must go hand-in-hand with strictly enforcing school rules and policies. If a child gets involved in a physical confrontation with another student or a teacher, the child should be punished for that, no matter what he has experienced or been taught at home. The same goes for any other behavior that's not acceptable in school, regardless of what the child's social environment tells her is appropriate behavior at home, or out with friends or anywhere else.

    I think you're in the wrong mindset if you think of it as punishing the children for their upbringing. I think of it as teaching the children that there are other values, other ways of conducting oneself. Talking about it and reflecting on it will get you lots of nice, thoughtful discussions and promises, but few real changes in behavior. A consistently enforced system of rules and consequences, on the other hand, will directly cause a change in behavior. After you have appropriate conduct, you can get them to analyze and question. Then, when they graduate from school and are free to make choices about how to conduct themselves as adults, they will have a real range of options to choose from.

    Your example of the abused child actually supports my point. You're right; you can't tell a child who experiences violence every day not to use violence. It won't work. Instead, you make violence an unattractive option by attaching negative consequences to it (and, if you like, rewards for refraining from it). If the child doesn't get punished, she'll have no reason to change her behavior.

    In fact, if teachers/schools fail to punish students for inappropriate behaviors, they are doing the children a tremendous disservice. In order to function as productive members of society, people have to comport themselves in a certain way. They must show appropriate respect for authority; they must behave respectfully toward others; they must solve conflicts in daily life without cursing, insults or violence; they must follow rules and regulations; they must use correct manners and etiquette. A person simply can't get very far in life without doing those things. There may be a few kids who will absorb this lesson through careful questioning and analysis. Unfortunately, for most individuals, what they learn at home and from their peers is far more powerful. The school has an obligation to rigidly enforce more appropriate behaviors.
     
  16. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    or, alternatively, your judgment is clouded by the fact that you have strong ambivalent feelings toward a set of rules that seem to be somewhat arbitrary to you.

    perhaps we should have negative feelings toward moral disregard. whether you agree or disagree with William Bennett on other matters, he did write a book entitled "The Death of Outrage", and even though it speaks to a very political topic, i think you will agree that it has become more and more difficult within this contemporary culture to develop a standard of conduct that requires people to desist from pimping their stuff in a way that is at the very least tasteless.

    take the Hardee's/Carl's Jr. patty melt commercial. i doubt that the average male in the target 18-25 demographic finds the video ad objectionable at all. that's because he cannot be outraged by the juxtaposition of a teacher flaunting her body and a group of teenage boys singing about flat buns.

    hey, she's hot. end of story.

    but, if you poll a different demographic, like grandmothers, for example, i bet most of them think the ad was completely tasteless. teachers, female teachers in particular, reacted similarly.

    me, i'm punishing Carl's Jr the only way i can. i will never buy a product from them.

    but i don't have a sense of humor and my judgment is clouded.
     
  17. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This isn't an applicable example. I respect [and agree] with the sentiment you're expressing. And, I agree with your actions toward the company. However, I would be outraged if you condemned anyone else for liking the ad. It's not your place to judge the moral corruptness of others.

    Also: I've not said I disagreed with punishing a student for breaking a school rule. I've only said that you're wrong to base punishment on your own personal code of ethics. You made it clear that your moral beliefs affected your judgment. You don't think that is in the least bit subjective?
     
  18. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We probably should, but most people don't. Plus, it's naive to think that you can change someone's disregard by expressing a disregard for their opinion - whether they are wrong or not.
     
  19. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As if everyone's moral beliefs don't affect their judgment. That's what judgment involves, a set of concrete standard by which you assess what you perceive. I don't condemn, as a general rule, the way people think. I disagree. I might strongly disagree, but an opinion is just that, a way that someone thinks that is based on the information that they have acquired. Sometimes people don't evaluate the information carefully. Sometimes they do not want to have differing facts impinge on what they think. But each person can have his own opinion without my depreciating them as people. Maybe the only caveat would be if the person disputed the facts and was clearly mistaken but would not admit it. Then, perhaps, I would think less of them for being intractable.

    I value correctness. I don't like it when I think I'm correct and I'm not, but when it's a matter of fact, not interpretation of facts, I think I'm pretty quick to admit my mistake, even though it may be embarrassing.

    Finally, all judgment is more or less subjective, isn't it? And while it may not be my place to judge the moral corruptness of others, I have no problem pointing it out, when it's clearcut. Call a spade a spade, I say.

    If you like the Hardee's ad, that's your business. I can think that the ad is tasteless and ultimately degrading toward women. If you don't agree with that assessment, I can think you're insensitive to how the sexualization of women in media is degrading to them.
     
  20. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, they don't. They don't even come close to mine. I operate based on a preset code that is applicable to the kids I teach/coach. And that code takes into account THEIR world as much as mine.

    Well done. You've now done the bare minimum to be considered a tolerant and modest human being. After you've patted yourself on the back, go to the end of the line.

    No, it isn't. It should be based on preset guidelines agreed upon by everyone involved. Consistency, consistency, consistency.

    Nothing drives home the point like a vaguely relevant cliche. :rolleyes:
     
  21. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    sorry to say, i'm pretty sure you're in dreamland on this one. no one is as mechanical as you purport yourself to be.

    having a bad day? you react differently to Eddie, whose attitude reminds you -- your unconscious self -- of your older brother, who constantly teased you about your overbite.

    like i said before, you're still growing at this stuff. tell me in 34 years that i was wrong.

    this has the tone of someone who is completely self-satisfied. couple that with the "i have a preset code", and i think you're driving off the cliff.

    maybe people ought not to let their personal preferences enter into their assessments of the world, but we can only do our best to be objective. and because we constantly operate from a vantage point that contains literally thousands of unconscious elements, we cannot reduce our reactions to a formula.

    being self-aware isn't a simple matter of noticing that you have a set of values and notions that are determined by your experiences. it also includes the knowledge that at any given time you may be dealing with unresolved conflict that is bubbling below the surface of your consciousness. you understand, i hope, that the fact a person has dreams when he sleeps is an indication that we have an inner world which has its own life, something we only have partial control over.

    thank you for your objective assessment.
     
  22. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thank you for proving that age does not equate to wisdom or understanding.
     
  23. RBourd52

    RBourd52 Member

    Jul 23, 1999
    Woodbridge, CT
    Sorry to interrupt your pissing match, but I'd like to get this thread back on track.

    I still like teaching. Its been three weeks. However, I've already decided that I have to change my philosophy regarding homework. My freshmen have been reading the text and answering questions that measure comprehension. I've been taking points off for wrong answers, writing the right answers on their papers. However, I'm learning that they some of them aren't understanding the text very well, so instead I'm going to give credit just for a good faith effort and we will discuss the answers in class. Moving forward I'm also going to design my textwork to build literacy skills, which 1) is a major initiative at my school and 2) based on my experience this month, is a definite need.

    Thoughts? How many teachers out there take points off for wrong answers on homework not understanding the concepts as presented in the text?
     
  24. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i don't think you realize how naive your ideas about objective/subjective judgments are. everyone has a code. everyone thinks their code is a good code, and maybe they think they are objective, but that's not a reasonable posture.

    when you said that you take into account where other people are as you make assessments on how to deal with them, it's your individual, personal, subjective accounting, not an objective account. you filter through your collective experiences and your evaluations are driven by how those experiences affected you. you have to know that.

    unless you carry around a PDA with a set of tick boxes that allow you to develop consistent responses to the stimuli that occur in your day by day experience, you're going to have times when your response is partly driven by emotional sets that you may not even be completely aware of. everyone reacts sometimes rather than responds. it's unavoidable. it's mostly a matter of degree -- how far afield of completely appropriate the over-reaction might be.

    my example of Eddie and the overbite was intentionally silly, but if you have had things happen to you that made you hypersensitive in some area, either you have learned to accommodate, or you over-react. if there is nothing about which you are hypersensitive, i would suggest that your experiences have been too bland to appreciate how rigorous other people's experiences have been who are hypersensitive. i doubt that you can fully empathize with what it's like to be barraged by unreasonable negative criticism.

    so, rather than prove that age doesn't equate to wisdom and understanding, which is true, btw, my statements describe a reality that you need to be able to perceive outside of the box in which you take comfort, because the world isn't as you portray it, not in the area of how people operate where judgments are concerned.
     
  25. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i think the answer depends a little on whether you are teaching English or something akin, or social science, or biology. if the lack of understanding is factual, that's one thing. if it's more interpretive, that's another.

    if you think it was your job to teach the concepts, then you need to evaluate whether wrong answers are the result of a weak instructional base. it's a tough question.

    some of my first year Spanish kids wanted to know whether i took off for incorrect spelling.

    hmmmmmmmmm. if you spell it wrong, is it a correct answer? how wrong is wrong. if you have all six letters, but they're in the wrong order? or only one of the letters is wrong, but it's the initial letter. or none of the letters is correct, but it sort of rhymes. sort of.

    and thanks for interrupting the contest.
     

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