The Ri Tadanari thread [NO POLITICS]

Discussion in 'Japan' started by Giallorossiguy, Mar 14, 2007.

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  1. Giallorossiguy

    Giallorossiguy New Member

    Feb 2, 2007
  2. Fuzzums

    Fuzzums New Member

    May 11, 2006
    North Carolina
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    Its so ironic there are a few ethnic Koreans playing on the Japanese olympic team and it seems fine, if an ethnic Japanese played for the Korean olympic team....all hell would break loose
     
  3. Koreano

    Koreano Member

    Jul 5, 2005
    Club:
    Seongnam Ilhwa
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    His surname is LEE
     
  4. goru_no_ura

    goru_no_ura Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 20, 2006
    Miyako of Zipang
    Club:
    Sanfrecce Hiroshima FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    Sure, in Korea his surname would be "LEE," but since he happens to be naturalized Japanese, he goes by his Japanese name "RI". That is his own choice, so you might as well respect it.

    A word of advice from the moderator: this thread could be the chance to use soccer as a mean to consider under different angles an interetsing phenomenon, such the Zainichi Koreans are.

    So, it is ok to talk about politics, society and race from a soccerly perspective, but it has to be done in a mature way, respecting each otehr's opinion and with no insults whatsoever.

    Read well: ANY ATTEMPT TO STRUMENTALIZE THIS THREAD TO CREATE VERBAL RIOTS WILL NOT GO UNPUNISHED. :cool: :cool: :cool:

    That said, please keep posting your opinions...
    Thank You from your Confucian Mod
     
  5. goru_no_ura

    goru_no_ura Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 20, 2006
    Miyako of Zipang
    Club:
    Sanfrecce Hiroshima FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    Sure, some political dumbasses would try to use him as a scapegoat, but I am sure that if a Japanese naturalized Korean would be a good, dedicated player, then Korean fans, team-mates, coaches and media would have no problem with that.
     
  6. inobino

    inobino Red Card

    Mar 13, 2007
    Behind You
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    Hopefully him being on the NT will close the bitter gap between Koreans and Japanese. I know this is a long felt dream but hey, anythings possible. Personally, I'm tired of all the bickering and age-old grudges. :mad:
     
  7. Giallorossiguy

    Giallorossiguy New Member

    Feb 2, 2007
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    In Japanese their is no lee sound so its ri anyway he changed it when becoming a japanese citizen
     
  8. shuvy87

    shuvy87 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 17, 2003
    USA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    To add to that, you will recieve straight warning points, zero tolarance.
     
  9. Giallorossiguy

    Giallorossiguy New Member

    Feb 2, 2007
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    ok the moderators have spoken
     
  10. inobino

    inobino Red Card

    Mar 13, 2007
    Behind You
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    Will Tadanari make it to the Japanese NT? That would be a major coup.
     
  11. Naru_Naru

    Naru_Naru New Member

    Jun 26, 2005
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    On the japanese association website, it's LEE Tadanari. And even in Korean, it's not "Ri" but "I". Before, he was known as イチュンソン.
     
  12. inobino

    inobino Red Card

    Mar 13, 2007
    Behind You
  13. goru_no_ura

    goru_no_ura Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 20, 2006
    Miyako of Zipang
    Club:
    Sanfrecce Hiroshima FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    Well, if you put it in Romaji, I suppose it can be "RI," "LI," "LEE"... and perhaps LEE is the best of the lot.

    However, if in kanji, in Japanese is read "RI".

    Thus all are ok... :rolleyes:

    ...oh, what's in a name...
     
  14. aguy2die4

    aguy2die4 Member

    Mar 26, 2005
    Seoul/London
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    im not so sure.

    the root of the 'bitter gap', as you put it, between Korea, China and Japan lies in the following in order of highest significance first:

    1. Japan distortion/whitewashing/lies/denials regarding modern history and teaching wrong history to children in schools. (Korea, China, Indonesia, Taiwan(Chinese Taipei), Australia etc etc the list goes on all have a big problem with this). China is carrying out a project to alter ancient and pre 1000 A.D history. They are actually working against their own historical documents and modern Chinese historians' body of work regarding old history, they are literally rewriting it, and trying to discredit any former Chinese publications and works or rewrite it and publish it anew. Some might say they are being hypocritical. But then again China is an authoritarian communist state where the people have little voice, whereas Japan is a democratic nation hoping to take a leading role in world politics and change its peace constitution, resurrect the military and parts of militarianism(facist) ethos and gain a seat in the UN Security Council.

    2. Political and economic friction caused by nationalism and protection sovereign territory and hence of natural resources and protection of commercial interests (ie. copywrite piracy, copying of products, brands etc). Korea-Japan, China-Japan, Korea-China....all have conflicts. (Japan-Russia, China-Russia, China-Tibet, China-US)

    3. History. People think this is important. But it really is of least import if issue no.1 and 2 is addressed properly. Why? because we are making new hisotry everyday. Whats happening now is history.

    Japan has plenty of Korean-Japanese playing for their National Teams (just look at baseball....there is a lot of Korean-Japanese.....a Chinese-Japanese is one of the most famous baseball player and NT manager in Japan), plenty of Korean-Japanese winning Gold,Silver and Bronze for Japan in the Olympics, Asian Games, World Championships etc.

    People speak of the Korean Wave, but Koreans have long appreciated Chinese/HongKong films, actors and actresses (but not pop music or dramas, although classical music wise Yoyoma is pretty popular here). Koreans enjoy Japanese Anime/manga, films and pop-music(well japan pop music is not that popular per se, but there are people who do enjoy it, personally never really got into Japanese music but via Japanese friends heard a lot of underground and street stuff which was pretty good. As for japan pop its crap.....guess who invented the manufactured fake short lived boy or girl bands?).

    Plenty of Korean-Japanese in the entertainment industry. And steady increase of Japanese in the Korean entertainment industry.

    Businesswise, there a lot of Korean-Japanese CEOs, the richest man in Japan is Korean-Japanese (the Bill Gates of Asia) owner of Softbank.....and dont forget the owner of Lotte...... Commerce btw Korea-China-Japan is very important with many commercial links and parnerships.

    Crime also have parnterships and links btw the three nations be it white collar fraud, embezzlement, industrial spies, selling blueprints, patent information and technology, or the more organised crime related stuff.

    so it seems there already has been alot of sports and cultural exchange, not to mention strong business ties. But without the real issues listed above being addressed it wont matter if Lee Choong-sung (Tadanari Lee) scores 10 goals for Japan in WC2010 and single handedly puts them in the Semi Finals....strife,friction and prejudice will still continue.
     
  15. goru_no_ura

    goru_no_ura Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 20, 2006
    Miyako of Zipang
    Club:
    Sanfrecce Hiroshima FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    What happens with the Japanese revision of text-book is a common practice in most countries. In the US, in kids are not tahught much about what the Americans did in the Philippins or in Vietnam; Communist China of course obliterates a lot of what has happened from 1949 on, and surely Korea as well has quite a few skeleton in the cupboard. For example Kwangju or the dead-squads who worked for the Americans in the Vietnam war to wipe out entire villages, women and children included.

    I could go on with much more details, since I happen to carry a BA in Asian Studies and an MA in Asian History.

    But why should I? Especially here...?
    What has this to do with the present?
    What has this to do with soccer?

    Only as much as politicians and media want to push the issue. But the truth is that everybody who has played the Beautiful Game knows that on the pitch color, race, nationality counts for nothing. What makes a player great are his character and his skills.

    So, for real fans, for the lover of the game single or double-nationalities, the fact that a player comes from a country they ahve been at war with 50 years ago, and the like will NEVER be a problem.

    And for the ones who want to strumentalize our game painting it with extremists colors and unasked nationalism... Well, I pity them. They do not understand the REAL spirit of the game, and I feel sorry for them.

    Let me conclude by saying tha places as this board should be where we come closer to people who seem different from us. Of course I am not saying we should not support our club/nt or we should not make fun and bug fans from other teams... but ALWAYS keeping in mind that this is a game that needs two teams to be played, and those with the other uniform are not so different from us...

    If you think that race or nationality is an issue, you should watch kids from different nationalities playing together. In the U8 team I coach I have, among others, Japanese-Americans, Japanese-Japanese, Chinese-Americans, Korean-Mexicans, a Polish-Ghanese and an Italian-Japanese... Do you think they care? :)
     
  16. aguy2die4

    aguy2die4 Member

    Mar 26, 2005
    Seoul/London
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    there is a difference between not covering everything in school and actually distorting history. You mention the US on Philipines and Vietnam......today children have access to history texts that portray that part of US history accurately.....and as for Vietnam well, it has been the subject of thorough discussion and critisim within the US. Korea and Kwangju you say? again every high school kid in Korea knows exactly what happened, there is no governmental denials, whitewashing, distortion or lies. Korean soldiers in Vietnam.....again there are no governmental denials, distortions or lies.

    American kids are not taught that no american soldiers raped a vietnames girl or that there were no village burnings and wrongfull killings. Japanese kids are told not only in text books that China and Korea needed Japan to takeover (apparently China and Korea even requested it) for the good of these nations. They are taught that there were no massacres, no human experimentation, no atrocities, no rapes, no comfort women (sex slaves) etc etc. The Japanese Prime Minister only last week announced that there were no Asian women, Korean, Chinese, Indonesian etc etc were forced into sex-slaves to be group raped by soldiers. The testimonies of the survivors are unreliable and lies at worst they say, the testimonies of former Japanese soldiers are ignored as are diaries and letters of Japanese officers.

    what Japan is doing is nothing like what US or Korea is doing. Im surprised you even suggested it was comparable.

    if a person like you who has a BA and a MA in Asian History, who has travelled outside of Japan, cannot see the difference, what do you think an average Japanese person who has never left Japan or have a BA and MA in Asian History, what do you think they are thinking? what do you think these average Japanese person is thinking when they hear on the news how there are anti-Japan riots in China? or how J-league clubs or Japanese NTs get intimidated when they play in China? or Koreas displeasure over Japanese Prime Mister visits and paying of respect to Yaskuni shrine or Korean-Japanese not wanting to naturalise. Im sure it bewilders them, pisses some of them off and makes them fear and hate China and Korea.

    they may not care now, but they will care soon. It is not reasonable to believe that they will maintain their innocence. The rest of us has to change first. And for that to happen the main causes i have listed has to be resolved first.

    Racism some say is the result of ignorance and fear. Ignorance of other's culture and fear of the differences. This is certainly true for racism between white-black-yellow-red-brown.

    however, for Korea, China and Japan, as ive already said we are all aware of each others culture and history, and our common ground is bigger than our differences in our culture.

    so where do prejudices between people who know each other well stem from? From points no.1, 2 and 3 in my earlier post. Its not the ignorance of culture or religion and customs causing friction here but the ignorance of history and denial of what actually happened. Its not the difference in colour of ones skin, but the difference in what we teach to our children, the fundamental difference in our understanding of our our collective and recent pasts....a past that is so recent that people are alive today who still remember it, but at the same time they are dying and we are left with an overwhelming urgency to address our Histroy for once and for all before its too late and the eyewitnesses, the sufferers and perpetrators (some of whom are full of regret and remorse) are all dead.

    Now if you look at Europe and North America, they have point no.2 and 3 to deal with too, hence the Scottish/Irish/Welsh dislike the English, the English is snobby towards the Americans, the French and Enlgish dont get along, French are condescending towards the Spanish and Italians etc etc. Disputes in Fishing rights, commercial taxes, immigration and so on still go on. But History wise everyone has found common agreement more or less except for a little bit of spin. As for Modern History, pretty much total agreement is found. You reckon the French still hate the Germans? No, not really, the French actually work with the Germans a lot better than with anyone else. The French perhaps dislike the English more than they do the Germans. Dutch and Germans? yes there are strife there, but in the understanding of History between them, there are no lies.
     
  17. goru_no_ura

    goru_no_ura Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 20, 2006
    Miyako of Zipang
    Club:
    Sanfrecce Hiroshima FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    ...listen, this is getting boring. in Japan as well there is a lot, I mean A LOT of material about Japanese crimes during WWII, and besides a pathetic bunch of right-wingers, every educated Japanese knows exactly what happened, and is not proud of it. However, most of them think it is about time to move on, exactly as they have moved on from being nuked twice (did Americans apologized or refund the families in hiroshima and Nagasaki?); exactly as the whole Europe has moved on from WWII, as Vietnam has moved on, as a lot of African countries, formes Soviet states, etc. have moved on.

    No. For the most they just don't care.
    Millions of Japanese travel to China and Korea every year, and enjoy it.

    You're right here. They might change when they got indoctrinated.
    That is sad. I bet they were happier when the played without thinking about ugly things happened half a century ago and more.

    The great majority of people in East-Asia respect each-other, work with each-other, makes business with each-other, play soccer with each otehr, etc... I've traveled with my Japanese wife and mixed Eurasian son over China twice, and all I've found was courtesy, curiosity and great food. Not once she was mistreated for being a Japanese citizen. Some of her best friends here in the US are Korean or Chinese. We watch Korean movies, and read Chinese novels. Differences are outgrown by individual efforts, have you ever tried to think it this way?

    No. Prejudice come from the glorification of a past more than 50 years old that should not be forgotten, but put into context WHEN NEEDED, not just as a hobby.

    The way you have been trolling this thread about soccer with a sermon about 'Japanese lies' is the proof of how some get carried away, and would use any pretext for bringing up the same tedious arguments...

    This is mostly for fun.

    This is business.

    Are you sure? There's not even agreement on the number of Jewish killed by the nazis...

    No lies? You REALLY think we know the whole (hi)story?

    No lies? Look who is in charge in the US and in the UK and what they're doing...

    The real difference is that most people in Europe and in the West in general is simple NOT interested in old rhetoric, because they have better thing to do with their life, NOW.

    I lost two uncles in WWII. One to the Russians (18yo, tortured in front of his comrades in a jail), one to and English bomb (was one month old).

    So what? Should I hate the Russian and the British in the 21st century because they did not apologize to me and they did not sent me money...??

    Oh dear... When will it end? :confused:
     
  18. inobino

    inobino Red Card

    Mar 13, 2007
    Behind You
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    The Difference between Germany and Japan:

    Chancellor Willi Brandt kneeling for Jewish Victims

    [​IMG]

    Koizumi paying tribute to war criminals.

    [​IMG]

    "How can I shake your hand if my own hand is clenched?"

    I dont hate Japan, I've been there plenty of times and received warm receptions, heck I'm married to a Japanese women, but sometimes its frustrating to see East Asia in turmoil over events that happened 50 + years ago. Tensions are probably going to rise with that new Rape of Nanking movie thats coming out.
     
  19. inobino

    inobino Red Card

    Mar 13, 2007
    Behind You
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    And regarding the similarities between Europe and Asia, many Nations in Europe still hold grudges towards each other that often escalate to violent encounters. Were you not watching the videos where English fans sing:

    "There were 10 German Bombers in the air ~
    There were 10 German Bombers in the air~
    There were 10 German Bombers!
    10 German Bombers!
    10 German Bombers in the air ~
    BUT the RAF from England shot one down (Shot one down!)
    BUT the RAF from England shot one down! (Shot one down!)
    But the RAF from England
    RAF from England
    RAF from England shot one down~ !"


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StLTP8Crhvc

    (and so forth)

    "My granddaddy killed your granddad! hoo hah! hoo hah! My granddaddy killed your granddad! hoo hah hoo hah hey!"

    How about Ireland vs. England games? Supporters nearly try to kill each other in those matches.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMLFK5SylqI
    If that's not hate and strife, I dont know what is. The China/Korea/Japan situation is not exclusive to the Far East, but its sadly very much a part of Human Nature.
     
  20. Yojimbo

    Yojimbo Member

    Mar 8, 2007
    Norf London
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    Thing is, those are only a minority. I live in england, and most people only veiw those grudges playfully. You think there is widespread tension between these british counties because of a video you saw on tv/youtube or some article you read. You dont live in this country, and judging by the fact that you recalled no personal experiences relating to what happened in these videos its safe to say you probably don't know the political/social climate over here. Yeah there have been violent incidents between these countries but for the most part, these rivalrys are not serious. Most people see what happened in the past as history, and although i, too believe the prime minister of japan should give a public opology like germany did, at the end of the day, we should leave the past in the past and not let it affect how we see our fellow man. Judge a person on who they are, not on what some idiots did or did not do decades ago.

    Wasn't this thread supposed to be about Ri Tadanari, why are talking about history & politics when we should be focusing on this exciting new player :confused:
     
  21. inobino

    inobino Red Card

    Mar 13, 2007
    Behind You
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    edit: As far as I can recall, there hasnt been like a violent riot between China/Korea/Japan, a lot of bickering but no hard violence. the closest I saw was when Japan and China played in the AC 2004, that was a hostile crowd..

    I always dream for peace in the Far East, and everyone should contribute to making that a reality :) !

    Right, regarding Tadanari, do you guys think he will break into the Japanese NT once he matures?
     
  22. Yojimbo

    Yojimbo Member

    Mar 8, 2007
    Norf London
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    Japan had to hide in their locker room for an hour after the match finished to avoid being attackes by angry fans :(
     
  23. inobino

    inobino Red Card

    Mar 13, 2007
    Behind You
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread


    yikes! :eek:
     
  24. goru_no_ura

    goru_no_ura Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 20, 2006
    Miyako of Zipang
    Club:
    Sanfrecce Hiroshima FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    That was unfortunate, but these things have happened since soccer was created... They happen after third division games as well... Please keep that in mind since, in the end, besides slogan and a lot of threats, nobody got hurt. Since then, Japanese and Chinese teams met quite a few times, and nothing special happened.

    Clearly the media loved the story, but it was just an ordinary, minor soccer-inspired riot.
     
  25. goru_no_ura

    goru_no_ura Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 20, 2006
    Miyako of Zipang
    Club:
    Sanfrecce Hiroshima FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    Re: The Ri Tadanari thread

    Indeed.

    INDEED.

    ...What is a picture of Koizumi at Yasukuni supposed to proof? Do you think that in other war memorials there are no war-criminal buried?

    Read these, perhaps they give a better perspective...
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1599642.stm
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1586040.stm

    Gosh, some of you seem to think that Japan, Korea and China are still at war...
    In truth, there are some regional tensions, like everywhere in the world, and old issues are used by politicians, business-men and untranationalists to push their agendas.

    Too bad that such rhetoric might pollute soccer as well, but -then again- is nothing new...

    Now, if we could REALLY go back to Tadanari...
     

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