Thanks for the work, I really appreciate it. This really is the only way at this point to compare the two leagues. I am impressed with those numbers. The NPSL is a really interesting product.
I think that's an excellent point. I'd much rather see a club change leagues than fold. Before the NPSL came along, I always thought that it would be nice for the PDL to have a 1st and 2nd division. (Similar to the W-League, who had a 1st and 2nd division for a while) Put the teams that aren't AS committed to winning and making a huge financial commitment (teams that are happy to have a team to cap off their youth system etc.)...into Division 2. I guess I'm referring moreso to the W-league (where there is a MUCH greater difference between the top clubs and the bottom feeders, because there's a greater talent pool to choose from.) You've got teams like Vancouver, New Jersey (well, Jersey Sky Blue now), Detroit, and Central Florida who go out and get top-notch players...and teams like New Hampshire and Northern Virginia who basically stick to local players (and that's fine!) and they get slaughtered every year.
That's another point worth exploring....what's the difference between the MPSL and the NPSL? Are the same people behind those leagues?
MPSL is the precursor to the NPSL. When the teams broke away from the PDL they formed the MPSL in the west. When the MPSL decided to expand to the midwest they changed the name from the Men's Premier Soccer League (MPSL) to the NPSL (National Premier Soccer League) as they weren't a regional league anymore.
So, it's the same organization...just more national. Same business model, etc. The interview I referred to at the top of this thread was when the MPSL was founded...so we're talkin' like 2002 or 2003.
Yeah, the MPSL formed 5 years ago from what I've been told, then 2 years ago they added the midwest division and 2007 added the Northeast.
Someone earlier said there were 17 NPSL/PDL clubs in California. The amount of traveling in this huge geographic state (which is bigger than most European countries) is astronomical. I believe it would be better for both leagues and soccer in general for the two leagues to merge. A merger would cut costs and travel time especially in California. I'll never understand why the people involved with soccer in this country will never get on the same page? I mean the MLS won't cooperate with the USL & the USL won't having anything to do with the NPSL and no one even considers the MISL. It reminds me of the old NASL/MISL and/or USFL /NFL rivalry. What's the point of working apart instead of together? Won't everyone rather make a better product by cutting out the wasted money?
You were right about a total of 17 teams in CAL. It would be great if these teams could play in one conference. I see there is also a Quakes franchise down south. I never knew of another Quakes soccer team ever existing. I just hope entire leagues don't fold because someone was not willing to compromise. I mean we are in a different time and age now than we were after the NASL but soccer clubs still seem to come and go. PDL Southwest Division Bakersfield Brigade CA Fresno Fuego CA Lancaster Rattlers CA new for 2007 Los Angeles Storm CA Orange County Blue Star CA San Fernando Valley Quakes CA San Francisco Seals CA San Jose Frogs CA new for 2007 Southern California Seahorses CA Ventura County Fusion CA new for 2007 NPSL San Diego Pumitas CA Southern California Fusion CA Real San Jose CA new for 2007 Sacramento Knights CA Salinas Valley Samba CA Santa Cruz County Breakers CA new for 2007 Sonoma County Sol CA
Cristo: So we meet again on this topic. Always good to have open discussion. Cristo and I had a similar discussion over in the San Jose/Bay Area MLS Candidate City thread last year. Using the U.S. Open Cup as a barometer is flawed in a couple of ways. First, all of the NPSL victories in this competition came against members of the PDL's Northwest Division, which has weaker teams than the PDL's Southwest Division which is loaded with talent. The reason for this is the USL's flawed qualification format in the Western Conference. Teams from the Northwest and the Southwest divisions compete for the two spots allotted to the USL's Western Conference. However all qualifiers are played intra-division. So while teams in the deeper and more talented Southwest Division are beating each other up, the two or three strong teams in the Northwest Division beat up on the weaker teams and pad their goal difference, resulting in their snagging the two spots. Second, the actual records of the NPSL in these five contests is 1 win, 2 losses, and 2 ties. The NPSL teams advanced in the two ties via the dreaded PK. And the one true win, Sacto in 2004, went extra time and was decided via the golden goal. In addition, PDL teams have much better success in advancing deep into the Open Cup. Since the existence of the MPSL/NPSL, PDL teams have advanced to the 3rd round of the Open Cup 8 times with 2 of those teams reaching the 4th round. On the flip side, no MPSL/NPSL team has made it past the 2nd round. Another thing to bear in mind in these head to head match ups is that the NPSL teams tend to be more experienced. PDL teams are restricted to 8 players on the roster over the age of 23, NPSL teams don't have this restriction (I'm assuming this is correct but the info is hard to find on the NPSL site. Cristo could probably confirm this.) The PDL's main goal is development, hence the name. Take a look at the most recent NCAA Final and you will find a lot of players on both UCLA and Santa Barbara who played in the PDL's Southwest Division. I believe there's another thread in this forum talking about 8 players coming from one PDL team, San Fernando Valley. So, head-to-head matchups in the Open Cup are hardly enough to judge which league has the better talent. And if using that criteria, the debate can be made for either league being better than the other. Maybe a better criteria would be to look at how the almuni of each league have fared in reaching the upper echelons of professional soccer both here and overseas. I have not done the research on this but it would be interesting to see which league develops the most talent. Cheers!
Quite a bit of development for the college kids, without a doubt. Since the college season is so limited, leagues like the PDL/NPSL give these kids a chance to get in another 15 to 20 games against competition a notch above the college talent. Basically it allows them to double their competitive playing time over the course of a year without having to forfeit their scholarships or drop out of school. A look at the recent MLS Superdraft showed 33 of the 52 draftees having played in the PDL. Another 33 ex-PDLers were taken among the 52 picks in the following week's supplemental draft. Seems like the odds are better to get a shot with MLS if you play in the PDL. Not saying this gives the PDL an advantage, but it is worthy of note.
I don't know if there is some unwritten rule about not linking to your own site, but I don't really care because it's relevant I thought you might be interested in this little project I have been working on. It's a Google map with a marker and link to every soccer team in MLS, USL-1, USL-2, PDL and NPSL. It's pretty complete and I tried to make the markers as accurate as possible, but I know that some are off (correct city at least), so wouldn't use it for driving directions .
Great idea and great map, but PDL and NPSL are not professional. So I would either remove them from your map or change the title. Thanks for all the hard work. These are the NPSL teams you missed. Atlantic City Diablos - NJ Boston Aztecs - MA Jersey Shores - NJ Long Island Fury - NY Lehigh Valey Jazz – Allentown, PA Queen City FC – Buffalo NY Brooklyn Italians
Is this development because of playing more games or is it actual coaching and instruction taking place? Also, PDL offers more opportunity for the College players because they have more teams spread over the country. Also, as the NPSL spreads out more and more they will get a higher share than they currently have. Also I heard Matt Driver is going to have an NPSL team, and with his eye for talent, I bet a few of his boys get drafted as well. In the end, its good to have two leagues at this level. Hopefully the NPSL can add a pro division after it grows a bit more and then provide even more options for players in the US.
Thanks for the help, I didn't see those teams on the website but I'll do more research and add them. I know they are not professional, basically I was trying to include any teams where you would have to buy tickets to go see the game (excluding college). I guess professional is misleading but I wasn't sure what else to call it. Pyramid of US Soccer I guess?
Ahh, ok, I get it, the Eastern Conference of the NPSL is new so that is probably why they are not up there yet. More work to do!
Pyramid sounds good. Unless we are talking Amway. If its based on paid admission, then wouldn't college and even some HS's be included? The new FESL (Florida) has paid admission. Would their teams be included?
No, No and Yes. That is, I made a decision to stay away from colleges because that would be insurmountable. Hell, if someone has the longitude and latitude for all the soccer programs in the country I would add them, but I'm not going to look them all up myself as I have a PhD I want to finish in the next fews years I guess I was going for privately owned clubs. I'm not even sure if that is the best definition. I'm not sure how to define it, but I know it when I see it
I have been wanting to start a thread tracking these guys for a while. Maybe this weekend when I have a bit more free time. The PDL as the league that has been around longer, much bigger and better national reputation is obviously going to have many more guys ending up in MLS, USL-1, USL-2 or playing professinally overseas. If you factor in total players in each league and come up with a percentage then the gap between the PDL and NPSL is not as big in this category. In fact, the PDL office produces a list every year of those drafted by MLS. Here is another example of where the NPSL national office could do a much better job with its marketing and its website-- tracking all NPSL players who "move up" in the soccer hierachy. It's great publiciity and I would think is a big help in player recruitment. Here are a few former NPSL players off the top of my head, including MLS/professional affiliations (either before or after NPSL; if the player's professional team involvement-- including simply being drafted or invited to camp as a free agent-- preceded NPSL playing, I put an asterisk): Troy Roberts (Galaxy; Sonoma County Sol) Eric Kronberg (Wizards; Sonoma County Sol) Steve Purdy (1860 Munich II & Galaxy draftee; Sonoma County Sol & Redwood City Ruckus) David Briceno (Greek pro league, ? division; Sonoma County Sol) Yuri Morales (Danish 2nd division and Portland Timbers; Salinas Valley Samba) Aaron Lanes (Earthquakes & Dynamo; Salinas Valley Samba) Nick Hatzke (Dynamo; Redwood City Ruckus) Hector Guzman (Earthquakes* 2006 draftee; Redwood City Ruckus) Chris Wondolowski (Earthquakes & Dynamo; Chico Rooks) Anthony Chimienti (?*; Sacramento Knights) Jimmy Frazelle (Galaxy*; Sacramento Knights) Nelson Santana (Earthquakes* & Calif Cougars+; San Jose Frogs) Dominic Jakubek (Columbus Crew & Calif Cougars+; Chico Rooks) Matt McDougall (California Cougars+; Sacramento Knights) *Professional experience/involvement preceded NPSL experience. +Indoor professional team. National team experience from the list above: Purdy with the U-20 team; Chimienti and Morales with the U.S. Beach Soccer team. This is just off the top of my head, mind you. A lot of these guys ended up not sticking with MLS or otherwise professionally (same as a lot of the PDL players)-- but many are still good enough for a USL-1 or USL-2 level team, of which we have had zero in all of California lately until the Victory start up this year, so they haven't played at that intermediate level. To SL Benfiquista, I was merely responding to the question of the previous poster who wanted that info. I will talk about a few of your points which are all useful in a future post. I think you would agree that it's good to have the NPSL in northern California because the roster size of the Seals (and now the Frogs) is/are simply not nearly large enough to accommodate all the good northern California players (with college eligibilty and some without)-- many of whom would have to spend the summer outside northern California to get this level of experience.
I'm too lazy to quote...but someone said earlier that if the two leagues merged, then they would stand to save a LOT of money on travel (which is TRUE)...and I would love to see that. But in the same respect, I would love to see MLS & USL work together, but that's never going to happen. The NPSL and the PDL combining, I would think, would be more likely. This is a bit of a fantasy, but do you think the USL would listen if the NPSL approached them and said...."hey, if you lower your franchise/annual fees....we have 25 (or so) teams that would be willing to join as new PDL franchises" -- it seems like the bottom line could work if you had that many more teams...not to mention, the PDL is adding new teams all the time. -- Just an idea, feel free to shoot that down. As far as development, I think it has more to do with the additional games against better talent. Take a look at a Div. II player...who spends his (rather short) college season playing against other D-II schools...then he has a full summer of playing against some of the best college levels at every level (including Div. I). Without the PDL (or the NPSL) players play in the Fall, then they basically have to wait until the end of the following summer to play competitive games.
IF USL dropped the fees and IF the old NPSL teams weren't bitter, maybe. So essentially, don't hold your breathe.