The 2nd DP - Arena raises the bar

Discussion in 'New York Red Bulls' started by Prazan, Jan 29, 2007.

  1. Prazan

    Prazan New Member

    Aug 28, 2006
    Prague
    The news that RBNY has not even bothered to contact Rivaldo is important for more than the obvious reasons

    "In the office here, we hear those as well," Agoos said. "I can tell you that we have had no dealings with Rivaldo and/or Ronaldo at at point since I've been here."

    http://www.bigapplesoccer.com/teams/redbulls2.php?article_id=8544

    Assuming that this isn’t some type of outrageous bluff by Agoos (and I can’t see the point of lying so blatantly and publicly if we are actually negotiating with him) Arena has now set the bar on what type of player will be acceptable for the 2nd DP slot.

    That player must be better than Rivaldo. Period.

    It would be one thing to attempt to get a player like Rivaldo but fail. That is to be expected. Some players won’t come to MLS for any amount of money or will only come when they have nothing left. There is no shame in attempting to get a Ronaldo or Rivaldo and then settling for something less.

    Ronaldo was one case. Red Bull has had contacts with him for a long time, so they may have known that he wasn’t ready to come to the US at this stage in his career regardless of what happened in Madrid. But Rivaldo is different. We don’t know if he is willing to leave Greece or even to postpone his planned retirement, but the fact that Necaxa and, apparently, some other MLS team have put in offers shows that it is possible. And since Arena hasn’t even bothered to contact him, that means that the player he brings in must be clearly better than Rivaldo.

    That doesn’t mean better than Rivaldo 5 years ago. He is 34, after all. But it means that Tin Delgado, Robbie Fowler, or the like are not acceptable. They might have been acceptable for one year if Rivaldo and others of his class had turned us down, but not now.

    The player brought in doesn’t necessarily have to be a bigger “name”, either. If Arena and RB decide against expectations that the best way to get crowds back is to win, not just have a star, they could conceivably go for a forward who is very talented, under 30, but not a household name. I would have no problem with that nor, I suspect, would most here. The goal is to win a championship, after all. But considering the very high level at which Rivaldo is still playing, that would have to be a very, very talented younger forward, not just a more expensive "king of goals".

    And, according to the Chicago Tribune, they have identified that player.

    "The New York Red Bulls officially announced that they have signed Claudio Reyna. And from what I've heard, they're not done. "New York has identified who they want with the second spot," said a league source. ..."

    http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/soccer_redcard/2007/01/demerit_on_winn.html

    So we will see who we get. But I hope that Red Bull management realizes how high they have set the bar and that a lesser DP is now going to get an overwhelmingly negative response from the supporters. “Very Good” isn’t going to cut it anymore. "Better than Rivaldo" is where the bar is now set.
     
  2. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil
    Sorry, I just don't understand this logic (I'm not saying you are wrong- this very well could be the logic around Arena).

    You think with your current team, and let's say you add some Guevara ++ (ability-wise), but a 'no-name'....you think that team averages 10,000 extra fans a game at Giants Stadium?

    I ask, because that's the only way you are going to pay back a 3-4$m salary.

    Now, I can understand why a core fan might not care whether or not Red Bull can rationalize their investment (on that player), but I would think someone at Red Bull crunches numbers- and that the enormous increase in expenses (with Arena's big salary, Reyna's + the 2nd DP etc) has to have some relationship to reality. Will Red Bull 'invest' forever, or does the deal have to be more 'Beckham-esque' (where the numbers DO add up).

    I say the latter.

    Which makes signing someone the level you are talking about (like say Souza from Honduras) a good field decision, but a bad/very bad income statement decision in the short, medium run.

    I say make a good field decision AND a good income statement decision:

    Rivaldo, maybe Denilson, maybe Riquelme.....(that's the spirit).

    Finally, the only goal CAN'T be to win a championship. It has also to be to be economically viable at some point + established (in the community, media, etc.). I don't think the stadium + winning team is enough in NY market (although I do leave open possibility I could be wrong- ever so slight).

    I think you need that superstar too.
     
  3. CP Zeppo

    CP Zeppo New Member

    May 17, 2006
    NYC
    Let me get this straight:

    Due to some unfounded rumors, you believed RBNY was close to signing Rivaldo. Now that it has been revealed that these rumors were in fact wholly unfounded, and that there has never been any contact between RBNY and Rivaldo, you conclude that Coach Arena and his staff must now sign someone whom you deem to be superior to Rivaldo, who is possibly one of the greatest soccer players of his generation.

    Is that about right?

    How about letting rumors be rumors, letting RBNY make decisions for the team, and then judging those decisions once they have been made and you know what they are?
     
  4. Prazan

    Prazan New Member

    Aug 28, 2006
    Prague
    Of course. I was just putting that out as a possibility. The conventional wisdom is that you sign a "big name" who is a very good player and that will bring out the crowd. And that is the path that I expect RB to go. But you could make the argument that what really brings the crowds out is winning. And that therefore you should get an even better player (but less of a "name") to win more games and that winning games and winning the championship will bring more people to the games than a superstar.

    It isn't likely - just a possibility. But it illustrates why passing on Rivaldo was so remarkable. Because Rivaldo is both the "big name" superstar and the player who is still playing at such a high level that he would help win a championship. And the player they get now has to surpass Rivaldo, since they didn't even bother contacting him. And that is why the bar is now raised so high.
     
  5. bbsbt

    bbsbt Member+

    Feb 26, 2003
    Rumor has it that it's Henry.
     
  6. Prazan

    Prazan New Member

    Aug 28, 2006
    Prague
    (sigh)

    Let me try again. There appears to be a possibility that Rivaldo would consider coming to MLS or Mexico. Agoos said that RBNY didn't even bother contacting him. No, it probably wouldn't have worked out anyway. But the fact that they didn't even call means that they must believe that the player they have identified for the 2nd DP slot is better than Rivaldo.

    And as you point out, that is a very high standard. If they meet that standard, I will be delighted. Because I would have been delighted to have Rivaldo here. But the only name we have seen floated as a possible DP from a credible source (the Daily News) has been Tin Delgado. And Delgado, with his injury problems and lack of motivation at previous teams, is nowhere near Rivaldo's class. And that has me a little bit worried.

    If he brings in a lesser player without even giving a phone call to Rivaldo or similar players, he should expect a very negative reaction. And deservedly so. If he brings in a better player, I will be leading the cheers.
     
  7. sublicon

    sublicon Member

    RBNY, Fulham FC
    United States
    May 28, 2006
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    shut up.

    In other news, I think we need someone who is good, and will triple attendance, but umm, we already know that don't we. I seriously don't think its acceptable for us to have someone who simply performs alright. Its good to want to win, but it's never a sure bet. Tripling attendance will transform the environment of a Red Bulls game overnight. I want that. I don't care.

    People are talking about winning a championship but uhhh, what did winning the MLS Cup get Houston besides a cup? Golazo68 said it in another post: we're the core fanship already, who gives a crap what we think? As backwards as it may sound, he's right from a marketing manager's perspective . . . none of us will demand a refund on our season tickets if we get a high profile dude who might be a little passed his sell-by date (like Beckham).

    Lets do it, man . . I won't accept any of this low-profile talent crap. This is NEW YORK, lets get our Beckham, damnit . . or close to it. Although, again, I won't be demanding a refund on my season tickets if they don't. And I won't be bitching if they win either. ;)

    :cool:
     
  8. sublicon

    sublicon Member

    RBNY, Fulham FC
    United States
    May 28, 2006
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not to mention he's bad publicity, the dude tends to get into a bar fight or two. I think he's a loose cannon. He can stay where he is.
     
  9. CP Zeppo

    CP Zeppo New Member

    May 17, 2006
    NYC
    I think I'm just not seeing the logic that leads you from A.) RBNY never had any talks with Rivaldo, to B.) RBNY now must sign a player who is of a higher standard than Rivaldo.

    It seems to me that RBNY are interested in signing players that want to be here, and whom they feel they have a good chance of getting, rather than chasing after the top 50 living players in the world just because they are good, or just because there is a rumor that they might be interested in someday coming to MLS (in Rivaldo's case, it's been pretty clear that he will retire at the end of this season). I think Coach Arena has a different view of what kind of player might really help the team the most, rather than who has the biggest name or the best credentials on paper. Setting standards in your mind as to what players will be acceptably 'big' based on unfounded rumors seems to be a recipe for disappointment.
     
  10. Thomas A Fina

    Thomas A Fina Member

    Mar 29, 1999
    Hell
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because Arena only gives a damn about winning at the expense of every other factor (which is fine by me). I just wonder if his corporate overlords feel the exact same way

    because they are going to lose money on this if the other DP player is about as milquetoast as Reyna is to the casual soccer fan - winning or no winning.

    I have in the back of my mind that Red Bull would have preferred the DP spot one year later to open up Harrison. Because if the numbers to break even on just the salary increase is 10k in GS, it would be less than 5k in Harrison.

    But I don't think the media buzz would come with any person other than Beckham. and AEG's flagship got him.



    and it's pretty obvious that Arena, Goos, Harkes et al, are gearing down fan's expectations re : that superstar name player for the second DP spot. I wouldn't expect any name player this year whatsoever.
     
  11. Oatmeal

    Oatmeal Member

    Dec 2, 2006
    That's funny because I was just thinking about him...even though there is no way what you said is true...it will haunt me.
     
  12. Oatmeal

    Oatmeal Member

    Dec 2, 2006
    ^ I am still falling for it...it'd be nice if you could just come in with a quick "jk" or "I totally made that up". It would make me feel better.
     
  13. metx

    metx New Member

    Jun 3, 2004

    All that is just Bolony...

    Arena say back in November that they have identified the players they wants, that the only was waiting for the day they will present them players to the public, that was months before some body start mention Rivaldo .
     
  14. Oatmeal

    Oatmeal Member

    Dec 2, 2006
    So you truley believe that the players are ours...we just are waiting to unveil?

    That is a lot of confidence in something that was said along time ago but may indeed turn out to be true. If so who are your thoughts on who will occupy this slot?
     
  15. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil

    Sadly, I think you are right.

    I think this is Arena driven. I think he is convinced that he has a more managable situation with a lesser, younger but talented guy. He probably CAN win a lot of games that way (also with Reyna). Winning will increase attendance a little/some. But that won't bring the pizzazz, Cosmos 'spirit'/superclub, buzz, + big attendance jump.

    But Bruce doesn't care (in my view). He's a coach. Despite it all, he's a coach. And coach's think if they've won- everyone should be happy and I've done my job.

    The New York market needs more however, and that 'thrust' has to come from above Bruce- "Bruce, hire a very good/great player AND a marketing star". But unfortunately, I think the power wrests with Bruce, and he's going to do as you suggest.

    Here's how (in my humble opinion) you best increase the odds of making this a tremendous franchise within 2 year.

    Get the one superstar this year: (Say) Rivaldo...

    Then, next January- you restructure Claudio's contract to that more money is on Red Bull's books, and he's no longer a DP. THEN you go out and get a Riquelme (or something like) to open the stadium.

    Big Bang this year (Rivaldo).
    Bigger Bang next year (Riquelme).

    And I've just sold out your stadium all year next year. And probably the next couple years after that (inertia). By then, you may have Altidore, Johnny X, and Wynne as the next wave of American stars + you can get your next big int'l name (Henry?). Spike Lee at your games, etc.

    I do have a concern that Bruce's 'overhead' is playing a part in all this. He's an expensive coach. He wants to be a true soccer club (read even more overhead), and you've got the stadium and Reyna, Schopp, etc. to pay for.

    I have a feeling that one part of the 'Reyna as a DP' squeeze. Of course, Bruce is OK with that, because he's a COACH. He probably even figures ('well, the regular season is just a tuneup for the playoffs anyway..so). You see? He can satisfy himself, have a winning team, but not needing to maximize the marketing angle.

    This is a real problem if you are of my philosophy on this.
    Bruce may produce a winner (who knows who wins MLS Cup, always a crap shoot) but a regular season winner that has incrementally better attendence but not a lot of buzz.

    Then a stadium that draw low 20's the first year (and then?)
     
  16. KANE21

    KANE21 New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    Arena already sign Renya and says he wasn't sell on Figo. I would not
    be surprise if the 2nd dp comes up disappointed for you guys. I will
    be the only one questioning Arena judgment. Just like WC.
     
  17. Eliezar

    Eliezar Member+

    Jan 27, 2002
    Houston
    Club:
    12 de Octubre
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just curious what planet you were on where you were the only person questioning 'Arena judgment' in the 'WC'.
     
  18. KANE21

    KANE21 New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    I am talking now. Renya won't increase attendance much although
    He still may well be a good player. "Arena raises the bar" LA gets becks
    and Arena gets Renya. I would not be surprise if he use his 2nd DP
    on DMB.
     
  19. Devil500

    Devil500 New Member

    Mar 7, 2006
    Section 101
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lets wait and see, and DMB will just progess back if he comes back to MLS...
     
  20. Rooney20

    Rooney20 Member+

    Jan 8, 2007
    New York
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Did we talk or even make an offer to DMB?
     
  21. Rooney20

    Rooney20 Member+

    Jan 8, 2007
    New York
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hopefully the play of the red bulls raises attendance
     
  22. Devil500

    Devil500 New Member

    Mar 7, 2006
    Section 101
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    +1 :cool:
     
  23. Swami

    Swami Member

    Mar 5, 2005
    I agree with your approach to building a team that can simultaneously win and generate significant durable fan interest. Unfortunately, I also speculate that Arena may want to go for lesser known DPs.

    I think that this team is at a critical point in terms of being able to regenerate passsion among the already large soccer fan base in the area. If things go as they have for the next two years as they have the past 11, it will become extremely difficult to get out of that hole.

    Arena (and presumed winning) and the new stadium will definitely help to mitigate the cost of failure over the last 11 years from a fan perspective, but there is a unique opportunity to do those things and add buzz simultaneously, which could wipe out the last the last 11 years from memory.

    In the absence of winning AND star appeal, the Red Bulls will be destined to be viewed as a minor league team in a minor league for a very long time. New York is a special sports market not just a special soccer market. Look at how the Nets did for 30 years, and we'll have some sense of what we're looking at. There is a special window here.
     
  24. Onionsack

    Onionsack BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 21, 2003
    New York City
    Club:
    FC Girondins de Bordeaux
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Personally i would rather have a high profile name to help sell the club to this market.

    However, i would be pleased if the 2nd DP gets someone who proves to be a huge contribution. Beasley would be acceptable to me, dispite me rather having a name player.

    Riquleme would be awesome, but i doubt he would come.



    Its only the first go around for these DP players, if we cant find the big fish this round or for the summer then we should use it one someone that can play at a high level and help us win a cup.
     
  25. bbsbt

    bbsbt Member+

    Feb 26, 2003

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