[JohnW]

To separate topics "First year coaching" from discussion of 3-5-2, I started a new thread.

My previous post:

[quote]
Keep in mind that just as you can implement a 4-4-2 in several ways (sweeper/stopper, flat, with/w-out marking, etc.), there are a variety of ways that you can implement the 3-5-2.

For example, when Brazil uses the 3-5-2, R. Carlos and Cafu function as wingbacks. In fact, sometimes you'll see the lineup as 5-3-2. Nevertheless, they both have great latitude to get up the flanks, but they also have defensive responsibilities.

Now shift to the US-Mexico game. The U.S. went with what were in effect three central defenders, two defensive midfielders in front of them and three more midfielders in front.

On right-side attacks, you saw Sanneh sliding out to tackle man with ball with Reyna tracking back to help. The two defensive midfielders, Mastroeni and O'Brien (?-can't remember now) smothered attacks up the middle.

The point is that these are two very different ways of using the 3-5-2. What makes it work is players who understand their responsibilities and then carry them out.

This is something that you as the coach decide, communicate and monitor.

Finally, I encourage you not to discourage (!) your defenders from venturing forward. You certainly want numbers back, but going back to the Brazil example, Lucio is very effective at getting forward from the central defender spot...

[end quote]

[JohnW]

First, let me say that we use both a 4-4-2 and a 3-5-2 depending on the opponent, game conditions, etc.

Also, I personally think that depending on the roles you assign your players, the formations can look very similar or very different (comparing 4-4-2 and 3-5-2). But the key then is the assignments each player has.

So here is a basic defensive alignment utilizing three defenders and two defensive midfielders.

X5 X6

X2 X3 X4

(Note: I've tried editing this thing and I can't get it to look like I want. Picture a short pyramid with the apex removed.)

One of the things that this alignment is good for is stopping penetration up the middle of the field. If I am facing a team with a very good central mid, I will sometimes have X5 man mark him, with X6 roaming in front of the three defenders.

The flip side is that you can be vulnerable to attacks on the flanks. Now, depending on the level of your league, this can actually be a positive because more skill is involved with taking a ball to the corner, crossing and getting a shot on goal than a player taking the ball right up the middle and laying off or (worse) scoring.

Thus, one thing to work on with your defenders is (obviously) what to do when there is flank penetration.

[JohnW]

Stopping flank penetration

Again, there are other ways of making the assignments, but this is basically what we do:

Let's say there is an attack in your left defensive third. X2 (your left back) picks up pressure on the ball. X5 (left defensive mid) sags to defend anyone cutting or penetrating from near top left corner of 18.

For sustained possession by opponent, outside left mid must track back for defensive support. He can also switch with X5 so that X5 can put additional pressure on offensive player (or provide support).

X6 will slide across to defend top of 18, watch for player/s camping there or cutting through.

X3 provides cover if X2 gets beat along end line.

X4 must watch for field switch and/or player streaming down right side.

I use X3 to help organize the defense, also.

Hopefully this helps some.

jgw

[Coryattheplex]

Hey John thanks, I didn't notice this thread until moments ago, but you have nailed down several of my concerns. I plan on having my forwards be an integral part of this system by asking them to drop back and in on keeper pick ups and goal kicks. I expect them to help clog midfiels and generate poke tackle turn overs in middle third, while generall slowing up central attack and pressuring team to go to the outside. I am inviting the other team to go outside because my team 'traps' the ball and player very well out there, and are less likely to get beat on the dribble. Most teams place their somewhat less skilled, less composed under pressure players on the wings, I want the boys to take advantage of this and cause high pressure situations there that result in panic play by the opposition.

It has worked so far, but I am also looking for adaptability. Any pointers?

[JohnW]

Originally posted by Coryattheplex
...I am inviting the other team to go outside because my team 'traps' the ball and player very well out there, and are less likely to get beat on the dribble....

It has worked so far, but I am also looking for adaptability. Any pointers?

Good.

Let me think about it.

[Coryattheplex]

John,

wanted you to know, my boys opened with a 5-1 win last night. Gave up the one goal on a corner kick that my goalie dropped. The mad scramble that ensued ended up resulting in the goal, but not until after 2 of my defenders, (who were in position thank god), made consecutive goal line saves.....it's just always that third one that kills ya'! Any way our defensive shape was great, and we forced a lot of give a ways with our mids and forwards pressuring the build up in the other teams' end.

[JohnW]

Originally posted by Coryattheplex
... Any way our defensive shape was great, and we forced a lot of give a ways with our mids and forwards pressuring the build up in the other teams' end.

Excellent job, Cory. Best of luck for the rest of the season.

I never got back to you on adaptability because I wasn't sure what you meant.

I'll give a couple of examples, and then you can clarify if you would like.

I think I already mentioned that with a 3-5-2 you can make a couple of minor tactical changes without changing the entire formation.

For example, I will sometimes take one of my defensive mids and have him man mark the other team's best player. This is especially true if that player really creates most (or all) of their dangerous chances.

The other defensive mid has a little more ground to cover, but he should still be able to jam up the middle and channel attacks to the flank.

Another example is holding a lead late. I will sometimes go to a 4-5-1 by replacing one forward with a defensive player who drops into the position of the central defender, who then drops into a sweeper position. Thus, the backline looks like a 3-1. The midfield stays the same.

jgw

[Coryattheplex]

Originally posted by JohnW



For example, I will sometimes take one of my defensive mids and have him man mark the other team's best player. This is especially true if that player really creates most (or all) of their dangerous chances.

Another example is holding a lead late. I will sometimes go to a 4-5-1 by replacing one forward with a defensive player who drops into the position of the central defender, who then drops into a sweeper position. Thus, the backline looks like a 3-1. The midfield stays the same.

jgw

Funny that you say this now because it is what I already decided upon for my two adaptations to special circumstances.
I moved the kid who used to be my stopper into one of the defensive mid spots, he man marks like a mother you know what, but has the speed and technical ability to play short one and two touch passes with my other mids. Kid was all conference last year, can't wait o see what he can do now!
As for the 4-5-1, the team we played tuesday was always chasing us, so I haven't had the need to use it yet.

[Reality_Al]

I've been calling this a FLEX-5

I used it in Youth soccer,U-14, and it worked very well defensively. I coached JV HS Girls last year, and introduced it. We were very successful using it. However, the Varsity Coach thought it a bad idea because he used a 1 3 3 3 sweeper-stopper arrangement and felt that they JV's who dressed for Varsity wouldn't be able to adjust.
Now this year, I've introduced it as a 1-2 2 3 2, w/ the sweeper, (or a 3-2-3-2 flat back, dbl stopper). In our first scrimmage, we maintained shape for 1 minute. By game 4, we were up to 30. Because they play 80 minutes, we lost them all BIG TIME. However, when they maintained shape, they were as good as anyone. They are learning the FLEX and the areas of responsibility. That is the tricky part, I think, because, depending on the positional names you give, they can become completely confused.

[JohnW]

Originally posted by Reality_Al
I've been calling this a FLEX-5..

...In our first scrimmage, we maintained shape for 1 minute. By game 4, we were up to 30. Because they play 80 minutes, we lost them all BIG TIME. However, when they maintained shape, they were as good as anyone. They are learning the FLEX and the areas of responsibility. That is the tricky part, I think, because, depending on the positional names you give, they can become completely confused.

Good point, Al.

A couple of things you can do to work on maintaining shape during practice (and maybe you already do this):

1. Of course, there's always the tried and true whistle/freeze, quick comment on shape (good or bad)/allow players to correct/figure out what's wrong or right, then restart.

2. Also, if I have a player/s who is having a hard time seeing the shape, I'll sometimes start play with that player subbed out, standing by my in stands near field (on a bank, etc.-anything up higher) so that he can see how the play develops and what his position on the field should be. You can keep rotating players in and having them watch until they have all seen good or bad spacing. (Note: I make the watching brief so players don't cool off too much.)

jgw