European Cups

Discussion in 'Manchester United' started by Dark Savante, May 30, 2008.

  1. Dark Savante

    Dark Savante Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Become the Tea Pot!!
    Twinkle, twinkle, little star,
    How I wonder what you are!
    Up above the world so high,
    Like a diamond in the sky!


    So have you ever wondered what we are and where we stand as a club? Whether you’ve pondered this or not I can assist you with this consideration: We are the only club with three European Cups and I found that to be quite the appropriate opener to this post.

    What many on the European Continent have never understood is why Manchester United Football Club has the temerity to consider itself as something its European Cup haul says it is not. The Continental rebus paints an indemnifying picture that holds up and stands the test of time and tolerates, nay, negates extremely barren domestic spells. It is not so much a subtle suggestive encryption as a brazen example of the status a European Cup haul affords its suitors no matter whether they were collected ten, twenty or even fifty years ago.

    Liverpool, a club who have not laid hands upon their domestic league’s title for a smidgeon under two decades, are a perfect example as a case study of the previous paragraph. On the Continent they are still revered as the de facto English superpower because they have five European Cups. Pointing out that their qualification for such a lofty title in recent history is not backed up by domestic success is met with chiding, scornful riposte. For all intents and purposes it really doesn’t matter whether domestic success is around the corner – the progenitor; indeed the pre-cursive entrée to any debate on the subject is that Liverpool have five European Cups - two more than their nearest rival and five more than any combination of London-based clubs. The factuality of the statement stops most arguments dead. After all, European Cups are the true gauge of a club amongst the élan of European football.

    When the blazing sun is gone,
    When he nothing shines upon,
    Then you show your little light,
    Twinkle, twinkle, all the night.


    With the victorious rain-soaked night of the 21st of May barely a day old, Sir Alex Ferguson made immediate strides to point out to the assembled press-pack that three European Cups are not enough for Manchester United Football Club and inferred without stating it directly that he wants another one before retiring. He cited Bayern Munich and Ajax Amsterdam as clubs he wants Manchester United to stand alongside in the immediate future. Not for current status, no, but for the immemorial resplendence four European Cups engenders – many a newer generation fan could not care less how or when these feats were achieved for the aforementioned clubs, all that matters, in the end, is that they have four European Cups, each – and ultimately what that means for any club who have achieved such a feat. Take Ajax for example. They are a club who are and have struggled for the last five years, at least, but no one but their fans care about that. Ajax are still remembered for their glorious times and their more regal days. Even if their hard times extend to another decade this will be the case.

    Ours is a history that has stumbled for one reason or another. Sir Matt Busby’s vision was never really allowed the chance to flourish. His Babes were struck down just as they were getting the hang of the European game and his time between 1958 and 1968, when we won the cup for the first time, was spent rebuilding the club from the ground up. After his retirement we went into a freefall of sorts that took us almost three whole decades to recover from. By the time Ferguson had gotten the club and his team up for the task of winning the European Cup thirty-one years had passed. If you consider that by the time the 20th century had passed this was the trophy haul:

    Real Madrid 7
    AC Milan 5
    Ajax Amsterdam 4
    Liverpool 4
    Bayern Munich 3

    Of the clubs ahead of us, you realise that our history from the Babes, to Sir Matt and the subsequent fall-out we struggled to rise above cost us dearly. During both periods of managerial stability we have managed to win the European Cup. I do not believe this to be a coincidence.

    Since the Champions League’s inception in 1992, the European Cup table for those who have won it more than once looks like this:

    AC Milan 3
    Real Madrid 3
    Manchester United 2

    As you can see, with our second European Cup, we have moved into an elite band of only three clubs to have won the Champions League twice or more. The impact of this and implications of what it means won’t really hit the fans until the euphoria of victory settles down, but in our general pursuit of true, unquestionable giant-hood we have made an enormous stride forwards.

    Three European Cups separates us from an esteemed pack of clubs such as:

    Barcelona
    Inter Milan
    Juventus

    Three European Cups marks us as a fair leap away from Arsenal and Chelsea as we now have a notable distance between them and ourselves should they acquire a European Cup any time soon.

    Three European Cups in and of itself looks respectable and obviously far more favourable than two.

    Three European Cups does not look particularly humbled by five European Cups, indeed, the gap looks assailable now.

    Then the traveller in the dark,
    Thanks you for your tiny spark,
    He could not see which way to go,
    If you did not twinkle so.


    The European Cup has never once been retained in its Champions League format. In fact, the last team to even win the European Cup back-to-back was one of the greatest club sides of all time: AC Milan of the late 80’s. Indeed, there is no greater mark of certain indelibility than retaining this trophy. You may fluke it once, but to retain it brands you, deifies you and most certainly heralds you as a club. ‘The Great’ prefix is attached to every single club that has won the European Cup twice or more in a row:

    The Great Madrid side refers to Di Stefano, Puskas and Gento.
    The Great Benfica side refers to Eusebio, Coluna and Torres.
    The Great Inter Milan side refers to Suarez, Fachetti and Herrara as the architect.
    The Great Ajax side refers to Cruyff, Neeskens and Kiezer.
    The Great Bayern side refers to Beckenbauer, Muller and Breitner.
    The Great Liverpool side refers to Dalglish, Souness and Hansen.
    The Great Milan side refers to Van Basten, Gullit and Baresi.

    After that, there are no more. These are the great sides of the European Cup since inception, those that afforded their clubs infinite glory that will never be forgotten no matter how many more names get inscribed on the cup. There is only one exception to this rule, which is that back-to-back winners, Nottingham Forest, were never given credence for their feat in the way the rest were.

    What stood these sides in stead to do what they did was that they remained as a group for the duration of this success. Between cups there were no major sales, no major overhauls and only slight modifications if any at all. They were able to grow together and form an understanding that bordered on the telepathic such was its fluency.

    Sir Alex must be aware of our hand in the upcoming tournament hold ‘em and without doubt the intention will be to fight against uniformity and try with all our might to not suffer the cup-holders curse and readily hand over the newly acquired trophy that has catapulted Ferguson into the fairly-argued pantheon of truly great global managers to have blessed the game.

    We hold a couple of aces in this poker game:

    The overall youth of our squad and the knowledge that in terms of potential across the board, we have not even breached the surface level; Carlitos Tevez, Wayne Rooney, Michael Carrick, Anderson, Nani and Owen Hargreaves have literal leaps in terms of how much more than can give and improve, whilst Vidic, Ronaldo, Evra and even Ferdinand have more to give before they hit their own peaks.

    Our knowledge of the competition amongst the squad has improved three-fold. Where previously we were at a loss against certain types of Continental football, we now have a grasp of how it works and how to, in part, offer countenance should we need it.

    We hold at least one king card as well:

    There isn’t a single side who look unbeatable in the Champion’s League next season. This goes for us, as our detractors are at pains to tell you, but I believe it to be even moreso the case for some of our potential opponents next term. The traditional power bases of the competition over the last 15 years are: Juventus, AC Milan, Real Madrid and Bayern Munich. Since 1997 we have been knocked out by these teams in combination five times and have managed to win against them only seven times in twenty-two outings. That is not a favorable position.

    The difference now, though, is that we are more learned and a team on the up, it would be difficult to say the same of any of the four listed, in fact, AC Milan won’t even be in the competition next season with both Bayern and Juventus needing some considerable improvement to get to anything like the level they were at five to ten years ago. Real Madrid cantered to a Liga win in perhaps the weakest competition that division has seen in at least the last twenty years. And it leads to wonder as to whether it will again be the English sides whom we most have to concern ourselves with or will Mourinho turn the perennial chokers that are Inter Milan into fearsome opposition? However it turns out with regard to our opposition, it has to be said that the possibility of us going all the way again has to be considered. Whether we can do it is another matter entirely, of course.


    In the dark blue sky you keep,
    And often through my curtains peep,
    For you never shut your eye,
    Till the sun is in the sky.


    And this is where Sir Alex Ferguson has one of his biggest challenges to date, for he, like this excerpt suggests, never ever sleeps where an advantage can be gained. Perhaps in the past we as a club were intoxicated with the elixir of European Cup victory, reclining a little too far back and falling asleep whilst basking in the radiance of a seasonal sun only to wake up burnt and a little shell-shocked our time and chance to lift the European Cup more than once had slipped through our ashen fingers. Where Roy Keane was demanding more and more players like Dwight Yorke and Andy Cole took their foot off the peddle believing themselves to be the gods they could maybe have gone on to become (two or more repeat season’s from Yorke at the 98/99 level would have assured him of that.) This time around, however, the attitude of the manager and indeed the fans is one of surface-level ebullience and simmering internal expectation. Resting on one’s laurels and entertaining a season long circle-jerk seems to be the furthest thing from the collective mind.

    Not to say our time has come, but certainly to consider that it is closer than it has ever been during this club’s existence. In terms of trophy pursuits and what they mean, there has never been a better time to follow this club. Any league title we may be fortunate enough to acquire before Liverpool will draw us level with them on the grand scale of total league titles won. Any European Cup we are fortunate enough to win before Bayern or Ajax will draw us level with them and boost us immeasurably into company we have never experienced in outright terms. Factually, these are things that cannot be argued against. No longer would it be a case of our treble subjectively trumps this or that, nor of other jibes thrown between the fans of other clubs at us from a factually loftier height.

    For all the claims of grandiose fan-bases and bigness in terms of revenue and earning power, many will not acknowledge anything but the coldest hardest fact – that of the major trophy haul. That which separates the beauty of Brazilian football with the pointless aesthetic charade of other countries who try to play the ‘right way’ and have yet to lift a single world cup. Ultimately, and perhaps sadly, only winners are remembered throughout the passage of time, heroic nearly-men are rarely held in the same light, in fact, after The Magical Magyars and Clockwork Orange, history does not look fondly upon runners-up. At all.

    Sir Alex Ferguson knows this better than anybody associated with Manchester United and one has to think that any potential success in future European Cups before he hangs up his hairdryer for good, will be lifted in the name of the club first and foremost and well in advance of his own personal glory – his second European Cup has him safely immortalized, a third may have him revered in more elite circles of fans and pundits, but to the mainstream, it will just be a blur in much the same way his multiple FA Cups are. During his now legendary press conference held on the 23rd of May, Sir Alex went out of his way to make mention of the club and the European Cup, repeatedly. The message to the fans being one of not settling for ‘only’ three European Cups when four or five are there for the taking. He even made mention of Manchester United striving to claim as many trophies as Real Madrid have even if it is not achieved during his lifetime.

    Sir Alex knows the full value of the European Cup and what it brings, what it protects you from and how it alters perception of a club in a way nothing else in the European club game can. There is a certain arrogance you can detect from the fans of AC Milan, Real Madrid, Liverpool and Bayern Munich. A certain regality that says ‘we’re above it all’ a condescending tone that seems to sometimes slip without them realizing it as they look over what they survey of the club game. Liverpool, a club that has not won their own league title in nineteen years have never once lost their belief that the next season will be ‘theirs.’ To the rest of us such thick-headedness is unbelievable at times, but It has to be acknowledged that no matter how many jibes are aimed at the average Liverpool supporter, their resolve never once waivers. They are the punching bag that never stops giving; the Weeble of the domestic game who never once concede a point and counter most with ’18-5’ a set of supporters who give even less acknowledgement of the nouveau riche protagonists than even the most ignorant of United fans. The Teutonic confidence of the average Bayern fan is no different and so it goes on and is displayed in the greatest resplendence by the more unhinged and unabashed Madridista’s you can stumble upon on a day-to-day basis across Big Soccer.

    The European Cup, as the only Continental barometer of success and greatness, is at the forefront of such abhorrence, but rest assured this is a human condition rather than a club one, and I would say with certainty that elements of future generations of Manchester United supporters who happen to be the beneficiaries of any such European success would act in the exact same undignified manner.

    The idea of a club with more European Cups riding roughshod over Manchester United is a clear concern at the moment. Not that they can, but that we’re even seen as a target of any such enterprise being the stickler. A sustained presence in the finals or even winning the European Cup, it is believed, would prevent this. And it is here that we reach a certain crossroads as a club.

    The idea of delving into South American and Iberian markets for talents that were previously impossible for us to attain brings with it a set of problems that only tallying more European Cups can protect us from. The likelihood of us not being the first-choice final destination for players of such backgrounds is considerable. Because of the celebrated status of players from their respective homelands going to Spain or Italy and continuing a longer trend of attaining worldwide renowned there a tradition develops where youngsters from those countries want to emulate their idols before perhaps usurping them and managing to get their own slice of glory in the process. Before long a cycle is set in stone and it is very hard to breach.

    For us, Anderson, Nani, Tevez and Ronaldo are pioneers. They may not be perceived as such right now, but if they manage to break trends of score upon score of elite talent going straight to Spain and Italy for an entire career they will be considered as such. Juan Sebastian Veron was the last immense talent we had from any of the climes mentioned. He, for whatever reason, did not succeed here. It left pessimists in no doubt that this was matrimony Manchester United could do without, and so it took us a time to go back into such markets with any vigor, much to the chagrin of those who believed Anderson would be ‘another Kleberson’ and so on. If these trailblazers stay here for a considerable portion of their careers and enjoy sustained success in the European Cup whilst doing so, it is almost certain to cause a ripple affect where more players from their homelands believe they come to England and Manchester United and do the same. This is one of the major advantages Spanish and Italian clubs have had over us for almost our entire tenure in the European Cup in its Champions League format all the way back to Romario’s devastating performance against us in 1994.

    Sir Alex is aware of it all and that is another of the key factors in why sustained progress in the European Cup is essential to us and our ambitions. The manager even said outright that all things considered, how we are in the European Cup at the time Ronaldo is in his mid 20’s could determine whether he stays here or goes off to Spain. I believe this to be the key factor as well.

    As your bright and tiny spark,
    Lights the traveller in the dark,
    Though I know not what you are,
    Twinkle, twinkle, little star.

    So we come full-circle with the European Cup as the proverbial tiny spark that possibly has us emerge from relative shadow. It is fair to say that we won through to lift the trophy in an uncertain fashion. That is not the point, however, the most important thing for any fledgling side to do is get its foot in the door and actually get that first title or trophy onboard and imbue the collective with a belief that this thing is within their scope in the future.

    One can only hope that the likes of Carrick, Rooney, Tevez and even Ronaldo will now believe in themselves enough to comfortably trump their level of performance in future outings in the competition. Whilst we did not do anything of the vintage of ’68 or ’99 en route to claiming our third European Cup, certain factors such as age and inexperience of this squad as a unit have to be part of any consideration well before the foreboding suggestions of fluke are mentioned.

    To achieve a semi-final and then a final appearance in consecutive seasons does suggest progress with many believing that the injury problems witnessed in the 06/07 season having a lot to do with our eventual defeat to Milan at the San Siro, it might be fair to suggest we have a Champions League winning defense and an offence which is one striker away from being par with the backline. There is no feasible reason to believe that this side and squad should be anything less than semi-final contenders for the foreseeable future with the current big club climate and the need for a number of sides to transition from an older perfunctory model to a newer product full of zest - which Manchester United already has (having gone through this same change over the last three years) – and ambition.

    This squad, as I’m sure Ferguson has made them aware, have a season of such magnitude ahead of them that they can write themselves into our history as the greatest side to have played for us should they do the unthinkable or at least the unfeasible, given the Champions League has never been won twice in a row.

    When the fates conspire against Sir Alex he takes it on as a challenge and fighting against an ‘inevitably’ such as not retaining this trophy will surely be his top priority next season even with the league’s importance being paramount. So you, as fans be as ready as your manager to look at, appreciate and then look past this month’s triumph and set your sights where he wants them to be. Think of us as being the limbo club a standalone three European Cups suggests we are and want us to go onto bigger and better things before the auld man calls it a day.

    Just as Cantona made us believe that this club was worthy of domestic success, our manager is trying to make us aware that the European Cup should be something we expect to hold aloft every May in the way the fans of other clubs demand before a ball has even been kicked.

    Fergie’s words have made me look forward to next season more than ever. I’m buzzing at the idea of retaining the league, but with the manager’s words ringing in the recesses of my mind, I truly hope we strive to match his ambition and avoid the complacency that killed Barcelona so abruptly two seasons ago. We may not retain the European Cup, but we’ve got to go into it believing we can and carrying the attitude champions are supposed to have when opposed. There’s a lot to improve upon from this year’s run and our players are more than capable of taking themselves up another level to do so.
     
  2. cr7torossi

    cr7torossi Member+

    May 10, 2007
    Nice read:)

    As we have said before, not being complacent is the key here. Becoming the first team to retain the European Cup in its new avatar would be immense.

    As would retaining the likes of Ronaldo and Tevez for most of their prime as a club that would be as attractive a destination for players as the Spanish and Italian giants(we can already see the effect -- the likes of the twins, Anderson and Nani all joining us in the last your or so and we are now regularly mentioned as one of the clubs young players from South America want to join).

    Most importantly, as you mention, we are definitely in an English cycle of domination right now. We could not make any use of the last cycle; we certainly need to make the best of this one.
     
  3. WinningEleven

    WinningEleven Member

    Jun 23, 2006
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Bayern Munich = 4 x CL

    Good read.
     
  4. Red Jeph

    Red Jeph Member+

    Aug 26, 2006
    Chicago

    Bayern Munich = 3 x EC, 1 x CL
     
  5. WinningEleven

    WinningEleven Member

    Jun 23, 2006
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

    Thanks :)
     
  6. Red Jeph

    Red Jeph Member+

    Aug 26, 2006
    Chicago

    Np. ;) I was thrown off at first on that part, too.
     
  7. dan01

    dan01 New Member

    Aug 19, 2007
    The Great Man. United side refers to S.A.F.
     
  8. Amdrag

    Amdrag Member+

    Jun 10, 2007
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Barca only have won thee CL once. They also won the last European Cup.
     
  9. Dark Savante

    Dark Savante Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Become the Tea Pot!!
    Actually realised my error whilst out tonight. Was going to nip back and change it, if no one noticed or even read the thing.

    I should have proof-checked before posting but couldn't be bothered once I'd finished.
     
  10. Invincible

    Invincible Member+

    Mar 28, 2004
    Sanctuary
    That was a great read man, really enjoyable. You're right though, we're at a crossroads. Will the players be drunk off their own success and bottle it? Or will they be hungry for more and strive to improve? It's a crucial point in the history of Manchester United as you said. The Old European Order has been significantly weakened and a New European Order is emerging. We have a chance to establish ourselves as part of this 'New Order'. AC Milan are going to be weakened for a short time and rebuilt. Juventus need time to be rebuilt. Real Madrid are still growing as a new team. Barcelona are rebuilding. We're sort of in a transitional phase as well, except we won the Cup while in that phase! We weren't at the peak of our powers, wrecking anything in our way. We played a tactical, controlled European game that got us to and won us(with a large slice of luck) the final.

    Now, with the majority of the pieces in place and confidence sky high, we can go on the become a dominant force in Europe now for possibly the first time in our history. Ronaldo, although he won the thing would feel a bit aggrieved that he missed a penalty, so he'll want to get back to the final to 'redeem' himself and have a blinder. Rooney surely must've felt like he could've impacted the game more and he'll be raring to get back to that stage to shine. Nani got a little taste but he'll surely want more. Anderson had an important kick to take and he'll want more as well. Carrick finally showed up for a major occasion when the pressure was on, even if he did miss a sitter. That would boost his confidence immeasurably, so when he's being hounded by the 'lesser' teams in the EPL, his subconscious will say to him "You're a European Champion, you're the best, you don't have to fear these guys." and he'll play better. Tevez was exhausted and will feel like he didn't put on enough of a show. The list could go on and on for players who would want to get back to another final, then another one and another one for one reason or another.

    That, I feel, will drive our team on. What I am really, really excited about is the completion of our 4-2-3-1. When I go back and see how we played with Saha at his best as the '1' and Rooney and Ronaldo all over the place tearing defenses apart....it just fills me up with euphoria. For us to be able to perform like that in a major European game would really put our name up their in lights in the minds of many people around the world. I look forward to Fergie completing the formation this summer with one or two transfers in, and then allowing us to grow for a few seasons and develop that 'telepathic' understanding that the great Milan team of the new Millennium had.
     
  11. Amdrag

    Amdrag Member+

    Jun 10, 2007
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    One slight error did not take away from such a great read. Only reason I noticed is because I actually read the entire piece. No small feat to keep my full attention. :)
     
  12. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    History may not look fondly upon runners up but in my opinion that is testament to a really great club, that it doesn't only have one or two eras where they experienced success or may have have European Cup-challening sides. Take Bayern for example. Aside from Lattek's treble Cup win in the 70's, Bayern made the finals twice in the 80's, once in 82 and then again in 87, but went out runners up. They did so again, in the 90's with Hitzfeld's team losing to Manchester United. They managed to make the final, in the last four decades, I think the only club team able to do so. I don't think they'd be revered as they are without this fact. History remembers the Champions but I think the reason they are a great club and in my opinion above Ajax but behind Madrid, Milan, and Liverpool is because they've managed to put together teams that are strong favorites and reach the finals every single decade.
     
  13. Bex79

    Bex79 New Member

    Apr 30, 2008
    Manchester, England
    Brilliant read. :)

    I've not stopped thinking about last season for the last week now, proper excited about it, even if i wont being following us around Europe again. :(

    Back in 03/04 when I'd gone to Madrid to see us play, I met a Madridista from the time of Di Stefano, Puskas et al... I had a fair amount of time before the game and I'm always curious as to how fans on the continent percieve us, so I asked him what he thought of us a club... He said while we'd always have a romantic mystique of sorts about us, when he thought of the other European giants we didn't jump to mind immediately... I agree with your thoughts about three times now, last year I doubted we'd match Liverpool's tally after we lost to Milan during the Fergie era and we yert might not... but even if its only a difference of one, five somehow seems a little more achievable now. All the bitters I know have been repeatedly pointing out that we're exactly like Barca in 05/06 but as usual being themselves they forget we've got Fergie and while he's here there's going to be no way, we're allowed to rest on anything... The mood around here is fairly different to how I remember 99, at that time most people were saying this was it, that it would never get better etc...I spoke to Denis Law after the statue unveling on Thursday and while he said it was immensely pleasing for us to win it again, he was looking forward to see where this team could go... And thats the sentiment most Reds I know seem to share.

    One thing is for sure, Its all very exciting. :D
     
  14. Charleysurf

    Charleysurf Member

    Jul 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Maybe you are correct that winning multiple CLs gives moe glamour/mystique to a club than winning the domestic league. But at the end of the day it's a cup competition. It does not prove your true strength in the way a 38 game slog through the hardest league in the world does.

    Does anyone seriously think Liverpool were the best team in Europe in 2005?

    We can build up the CL as the be-all and end-all of football, but it's still a lottery at times. A bit of luck at the right time can mean the difference between being champions and being forgotten. We should know more than anyone. In a 38 game league then there really is time for luck/refereeing decisions to balance out.

    We can talk all we want about finally putting together a run of sustained success in the European Cup. But we've not been able to do it in the past after '68 and '99. In '99 the squad looked young enough to get repeated successes in Europe, but it never happened.

    I'd love us to win another CL before Fergie leaves. But I think winning the league next season should be the focus. We shouldn't be talking down the value of the league compared to the CL. The scousers have been doing that only because they have not been good enough to challenge for the league. The old Paisley quote about the league being their "bread and butter" has been conveniently forgotten.
     
  15. Milliano

    Milliano New Member

    Jul 7, 2006
    What do you mean by "true strength"? The "true strength" in the league is only true because it's what is important in the league. Leagues are the norm in football... it's what the fans are used to... so the things that are important in doing well in the league are automatically deemed the things that make up a "truly" strong team. It's a logical fallacy.

    What about injuries? If you're going to say that luck is so prevalent, then you have to admit that injuries are bad luck. Injuries can harm domestic seasons more than they can harm Cup runs. Liverpool in 2005 is an excellent example of this... they had what... a dozen injured players at one point? At times the only keeper they had available was a teenager, and the only striker available was CCC quality. And they had bad luck of the draw, facing tougher opponents than what many finalists have to beat.

    Unlike in the league, Cup ties involve tallying a score over 180 minutes rather than 90 --- meaning each match has only half as much potential to be decided by unlucky officiating.
     
  16. blanc

    blanc Member

    Jan 13, 2006
    Los Galácticos
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Good read from OP
     
  17. Dark Savante

    Dark Savante Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Become the Tea Pot!!
    Over here Ajax (and Holland) will be forever remembered for Total Football and their academy which played almost the whole part in all their European Cup victories. They're never seen as below Bayern in the EC aspect. In current terms they are going through a rough patch, but it is guaranteed that whenever Ajax or Holland are commentated on by a major broadcaster here, every single cliche in the book about what they once were is thrown into proceedings.


    Aye, it's certainly the buzz going round. I am very much looking forward to it in much the same fashion as you.

    I spoke to my old man about this before I wrote the original post and he says this is the first time winning the EC felt like a 'beginning' rather than an end. The last two times we won it, everything seemed to stop and the desire of a few players in each side changed or waned, even. I can't see that being the case for anyone this time round.

    This is the first time we've won the European Cup whilst being put under immense scrutiny and doubt about our credentials. Our first port of call is to prove we're a team who are truly in it to win it every season from now on and not end up as valiant also-rans like we're usually seen as by the 'higher-ups' in the European game.

    A lot of our players have a lot more to prove on that stage and still need some vintage marquee performances to catapult them to greatness. So it's all to play for across the board.

    Not sure the pressure is on us in this regard for next season, either, beings as retaining the Champions League has never been done before, so we should be able to go out there and enjoy it, come what may.
     
  18. Dark Savante

    Dark Savante Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Become the Tea Pot!!
    I've heard a lot about this 'it's a cup competition' thing and think that's rubbish, tbh.

    Favourites are installed and more times than not win the whole thing for a reason. The trend was only bucked by Porto and Liverpool in recent times as opposed to all the winners of it who were called before they'd even got out of the group stages.

    It's not correct to say the league tests you in a better way than the CL, because it doesn't. It merely asks a different set of credentials from you than a CL - where you will meet more teams of peerage on average than you will in the league.

    The CL tests bottle, fortitude and the ability to deliver when everything is on the line in the immediacy of a 180 minute two-legged affair. The league has far more room for error and can be won by the fattest most bolstered squad, as Chelsea have proven. You cannot win the CL in this manner.

    That you refer to the PL as a 'slog' also highlights a major differential. The CL is a bunch of high octane sprints with ample recovery time between each set of ties so that both sides can give something like their very best. The mental exhaustion is far, far greater than any game in the PL calender as Rio himself testified to in his interview on Sunday. Winning such a competition repeatedly takes a special kind of nous. I don't think that can be said of the league where a solid and expensive rotation will have you hammer a high percentage of opponents regardless. Give Hull £300m and they are league challengers, full stop. It would not be so simply for them in the CL.

    It's not about who is the best team in Europe, it's about who wins the EC from year to year. In the end, that is what matters. The more EC's you have, the more absolute power and prestige you attain. Along the line your club will become revered across the Continent.

    We didn't win the cup in the greatest of fashions, but do you think history cares about that should we get four or five anytime soon? It's assimilated into the club legacy, just as Liverpool's 5th was even though they weren't a patch on their sides of the 70's and 80's.

    The greater teams tend to have less dependancy on luck because they will override dubious decisions and goals over the course of a match with their superiority.

    It's no coincidence whatsoever that Brazil and Germany have so many WC's, for example. The same goes for Milan in the EC.

    Apparently these teams buy more lottery tickets than anyone else ;)

    The '68 squad believed it had reached the pinnacle of achievement in doing it for Sir Matt and those that died 10 years earlier. The win for them was a culmination and exacting of the manager's dream. Bobby said 'what is there left to win now' or words not too dissimilar after winning it and the euphoria of the victory was basked in for too long.

    The '99 squad was not prepared for sustained success. Yorke, one of our major pieces, started to live the 'life' Schmeichel left, Stam wasn't far off and we did not maintain order well off the back of that, we took a while to find our feet again with the Stam departure. That side was not given a chance to succeed given the actions of a few in the group.

    Our squad now is very different to either of these.

    That our manager immediately came out and said we should have more European Cups than we do suggests his focus will be on both, if not the CL first.

    As I said here the league is my first consideration for next season, but the CL is a hair's breadth behind.

    The European Cup is the pinnacle of the club game. Our manager has said it, Rio has said it, Sir Bobby has said it, the Lawman has said it and a whole host of our players have said it has been their biggest moment as a club player during their entire career.

    The league is a more tribalistic thing - can you tell me, without checking, how many league titles Bayern have, or Ajax, or Milan, or Real Madrid?

    I'm assuming you cannot, why is that? Because no one but that tribal faction gives a shite about domestic successes in the big picture.

    The reason RM can bully and cajole as they do comes from the status carved out with those 9 EC's, not their league success.

    Also, I don't believe the league has been talked down, it is simply a different competition with wholly different considerations and more myopic bragging rights. Ask Rangers.

    But the fact remains that they have more of either and in the end their EC haul sees them marked as different from us. Even if we overhaul their domestic title record we will be seen as a 'lesser' club until we match them for EC's. For evidence of this look no further than Juventus and AC Milan. Juventus comfortably trump Milan for domestic league titles, but who are more revered across the Continent between the two?


    By whom? Sans Milan, every single one of the clubs above us for EC trophies have won their own league more times than any other. Such mutually exclusivity cannot be ignored.
     
  19. holytoledo

    holytoledo New Member

    Jan 13, 2005
    If Ronaldo leaves however, this side could suffer that same fall out. He could be the catalyst and it wouldn't be hard to imagine Nani, Anderson, etc. taking off as well if their big brother left.

    This off season is vital to solidifying this team for the next several years, imo.
     
  20. Dark Savante

    Dark Savante Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Become the Tea Pot!!
    I agree with that, in part.

    I certainly think our contingency plan for the future has to be focusing this team on Rooney again...
     
  21. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    For the record, I agree with your assessment of the Champions League as the pinnacle of club football. It's not so much an opinion but a fact proven by history over and over.

    Also, my point was more about a club's consistency in the European cup determining its prestigiousness. Both Bayern and Ajax have the same amount of trophy haul in this competition but only the former has managed to continuously put out contending-sides. I know history doesn't look lightly on runners up but I was always under the impression that Juve and even Milan were such great European sides because they were able to reach many finals and even in the years they didn't win it, they'd be remembered as great sides that came close - not that it's anything remotely close to winning the trophy.
     
  22. Dark Savante

    Dark Savante Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Become the Tea Pot!!
    I get what you're saying and I'm trying to cast my mind back to when Juve were the top dogs in Europe for repeatedly featuring in the finals, but the overwhelming feeling I get from that time period is of them blowing their chance to be remembered in history as what they were for those four seasons and I already think they've faded in that regard because of the exploits of RM and AC in getting to and winning the finals they featured in, the 05 result excepted.

    Basically, I am not sure the prestige of 'only' getting to the final remains poignant for those who did not see the side in question in action. History is phasing Juve's exploits out as we move along, and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find much literature for Bayern's sides you mention outside of more elitist publications and websites.


    Valencia of the early 00's will be a non-entity in 30-40 yrs time, for example.
     
  23. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I think you're right. That Valencia team is a good example of it. I suppose I was looking at this with a point of view that Bayern is such an anomaly compared to the English, Spanish, and Italian teams that they stood out. Regardless, history remembers the winners - and outside of closer examinations of elitist publications, it comes down to how many trophies were won.
     
  24. Bex79

    Bex79 New Member

    Apr 30, 2008
    Manchester, England
    Meh, if Ron goes and we have one bad result, the media vultures will be at it about how we're a one man team. We'll certainly have some pressure to prove ourselves then. I fecking HATE the media.
     
  25. GranCanMan

    GranCanMan Member

    Jan 12, 2007
    Manchester
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Great read. Top man.

    I'm always cautious about shouting the merits of the CL, regardless of how important is may be seen as on the continent, because it is "just" a cup competition.

    Porto and then Liverpool proved this when, depite not being the best sides in Europe, they collected the trophy in memorable fashion. Particularly Liverpool who were so diabolical that season domestically they couldn't even make the much vauinted 4th place in their league. Their claim as "the best side in Europe" actually made a mockery of the competition really and everything it's meant to stand for because they very obviously weren't.

    However, I see the point. We have to kick on in Europe and my only regret is that Fergie was not 10 years younger (as he was 10 years ago) as he is set to go in 3 years, or so we're told.

    I'm very optomistic for the forthcoming season. The side is looking excellent and with the likes of Anderson, Nani and Hargreaves inparticular getting their first season under their belt and Carlitos actually getting a rest this summer, we can look forward to a better, more mature, more settled side next year.

    Let's get it on.......... :cool:
     

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