In Response to Jeff

In response to this…

http://goalseattle.blogspot.com/2008/02/seattle-soccer-fans-picture-this.html

Dear Jeff:

Thanks for your enthusiastic editorial, on the Goal Seattle blog about the CONCACAF Champions League and Seattle’s involvement in it (assuming Seattle MLS becomes good enough in the years ahead).

I too, am excited about the potential of the league’s new format, and I am very excited about the prospect of winning that tournament in the future. The scenario you paint, playing the Aguilas of America is indeed an exciting thought about what may lie ahead.

So while I don’t want to appear ungrateful for the time, energy and prose you provided for us today, I do want to quibble with you over one item: the “Eurosnob” euphemism. Let me tell you my background, which provides insight into my own bias here.

I was born in London, England; Ealing to be precise, and can point to English heritage that dates back to the 17th century (probably even further but written records get very sparse before 1680 or so). So I would fit your alleged "Eurosnob" title perfectly. I immigrated to North America at a fairly early age, and I have lived in Canada, the US, Bahamas and even Mexico in my time.

Having ties to both sides of the ocean, I find myself all the time always caught in the middle of arguments over the health and legitimacy of soccer across the Atlantic. Very often in fact, I find myself having to advocate North American soccer. In particular, I point out the strength of the Mexican and US World Cup teams, and rightly point out the rising class of player from all parts of North America.

While I enjoy fighting for the “recognition” of CONCACAF play, I also often must turn the table, and stop American soccer fans from reducing European fans, to a wretched stereotype: the idea that European fans are snotty elitists, who can’t see the strength of the game beyond their own national borders.

The term “Eurosnob” when used as a comical adjective can be amusing, but when you offer it up seriously, as a definitive sect of fan, I take a small issue with it.

Not all of us born on the other side of the ocean are “snobs”, and even the most ardent supporter of Italy, Germany, France of England is that myopic or dismissive of North American soccer. Sure these fans exist, (much like NBA fans that refuse to see the growing strength of basketball in other countries), however, in my experience, that xenophobic stereotype so often conjured with the term “Eurosnob” is more and more, becoming the minority.

The European fan is not a superior breed of fan, nor is it an inferior breed of fan however. Indeed, most European fans I know (and they include my own relatives) are tremendously open-minded about the origin of players, from all corners of the world. Even that dreaded stereotype, called the “English soccer snob”, is really more myth than reality now. England’s propensity to naval gaze and faun over an era when its soccer and its empire were dominant still exists, but it’s more nostalgic than dismissive, more harmless than discriminatory.

I have no doubt “Eurosnobs” exist, but the term is an ugly one, because it paints an entire continent of fans with one brush. It is not a racist term, but it borders on one, and it is certainly an outdated notion. The fact is, to my experience the majority of European fans are changing, and they have embraced the international game.

Your editorial was superb, it rightly celebrated the exciting new format of the Champions League, and Seattle’s potential to make waves in the tournament, and maybe even worldwide. It made interesting commentary and suggestions on how to improve on what we already have. However, in my opinion, we don’t need to chastise Europe to make our point. We don’t need to create a stereotype, to celebrate our own potential.

So I urge you: if we have a score to settle with Europe, let’s do it on the pitch, and not with derogatory terms such as “Eurosnob”. I’ll leave your comment about Mexican fans alone for now, except to say if you ever you live in Mexico, and get to meet, work and live with Mexican fans you might gain a different perspective of them. They may be our dreaded rivals, but they too, deserve respect as equals and I believe they do CONCACAF proud.

Despite my petty criticism over a single word, I do hope you recognize that overall I thought the editorial was outstanding. I hope to stand next to you against America, and who knows, maybe even stand next to you against Liverpool and Marseilles, rooting for Seattle of course the entire way.

 

Great responses, thanks.

I took his meaning to suggest fans in Europe look down their noses at CONCACAF, something in my experience is diminishing all over the world.

As for Mexico, I interpreted his meaning to be that Mexican fans felt they were "too good" for CONCACAF. In my experience, Mexican fans love to beat the USA, they are some of the most knowledable and passionate fans I've met. It's an incredible rivalry, and it is appreciated by both sides, in my personal experience.

I have to confess, I root for CONCACAF in the World Cup, that means I've rooted for Mexico on occasion. I also became quite a UNAM Pumas fan in my time in Mexico. So its very possible my bias is showing here, and I simply was overly senstive to the remark.

In any case, if I misinterpreted Jeff's meaning in both cases, I apologize in advance.

I did think it was a splendid editorial though, whatever quibbles I had with it, shouldn't detract from appreciation of the writing. The enthusiasm and the anticipation of what lies ahead is indeed exciting, which to me, was the main thesis of the piece.

 

Thanks for the reply, much appreciated.

the teams that get to play in the Copa Libertadores are far happier than the two champions that get stuck playing in the Concacaf Champions Cup

Yeah this seems accurate, and certainly understandable. Getting to compete head to head with the Argentine and Brazilian clubs is a great thing.

they want out and there is a general sense I get from Mexican fans I know that they consider Mexico's ongoing place in Concacaf to be holding the development of the national team

This is news to me, although I don't doubt you've heard what you heard. Mexican fans *love* to comment on their national team though, and opinions vary loudly on the topic.

However, the fact is the Mexico/US rivalry provides a lot of financial fuel for Mexico, that I do not know would transfer if they left CONCACAF. Not to mention Mexican-Americans would be miffed at such a transfer. I'd argue it would really hurt Mexico in the long run, but I am a very distant fan, so I am sure someone closer could comment better than I could.

I haven't talked to my buddies in Mexico in years (since just before the last World Cup), it is possible the mood has changed since 2006. It's very possible, that because opinion is so diverse over the team, we're just hearing different things.

I am basing my perception largely on when I lived there, which was waaaaaaaaay back in 1993, and obviously so much has changed since then. So it is entirely possible I am out of touch.

It would be great if a Mexican-American or Mexican fan out there could comment on this. I'd love to know what the general opinion is out there of the Tricolor fans. If they are unhappy with CONCACAF, that would make me sad, because really the reason why CONCACAF is finally getting some recognition, is because the rivalry between the US and Mexico has become so good, and to my eys both countries have elevated the play of each other because of the rivalry.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to address my concerns.

 

To be fair I don't think any pro-team tournament across North American leagues has generated much interest, here, Mexico or anywhere. I love them, but they haven't captivated anyone yet. I would suggest the format change is more indicative of the fact, that they want to generate more interest, and to me the big winner in the format change was Canada.

I like the rule changes, I applaud them, but I think the apathey about the tournament isn't just confined to Mexico. That's just perception though, are there attendance figures or other data that back up the idea that Mexico is less enthused than US squads?

Looking at sparse data on the 2007 tournie on Wiki, it seems Mexican and American attendance was about even. I am sure there's better data out there, it would be interesting to know.

Still, I am not sure either of us are really qualified to comment on Mexican enthusiasm for Champions League, especially with the revised format. I understand Mexico being more interested Copa Libertadores, because quite frankly, the competition there rocks. I don't think that necessarily means the newly formatted league will be met with apathey. I am not an expert, that's just speculation based on having lived there, and the unsatiable appetite for soccer that I know exists there.

Again, let me state, I love what you wrote, and especially *why* you wrote it: Seattle will be a part of all this and more in just one year. The thought of going to a FIFA Club World Cup, and seeing Seattle represented, would be a dream come true.

And I intend to live long enough to see that happen.

 

What's interesting about being an Arsenal fan these days is that people look at you and assume you've just jumped onto a trend, like 50% of the Red Sox fans walking around this town have. You know the type, they can tell you all about the Babe Ruth curse from some PBS documentary they saw, but freeze like a deer in the headlights when you ask them who Bobby Doerr is.

It hasn't always easy to be an Arsenal fan, perhaps easier than it has been being a fan of Scunthorpe United, to be sure, but the league was not always the way its structured now. Premiere League soccer is hard to recognize these days. It is so bloated, so saturated cash and Arsenal itself is riddled with non-English players. I don't mind that, but when the starting squad didn't feature a single English player - at all - well I know my Grandfather (a former player on the Arsenal reserve squad before WWII started), is rolling in his grave.

The point here, is some of us, have a history with these squads, and we follow them out of interest, and possibly even a generational link, but to categorize all of us as "Eurosnob" dismisses us too easily.

Soccer can be appreciated in so many different ways, we all gravitate to the sport for different reasons and appreciate it in different ways. Alas, sometimes soccer fans love to exclude, segregate and judge other fans. The premise of the exclusion is that only fans who support soccer in a certain way are "real". Usually, of course, their lines are based on how they themselves choose to appreciate the sport.

It's a kind of chest thumping, and elitism that seems to exist amongst soccer fans more than any other group of fans in this city. I really wish it would stop. It doesn't do the soccer community one bit of good, and it can often shun newcomers, who eventually get so intimidated by the elitism, exclusion and rites of passage one must complete before being adopted, that they withdraw from the community as a whole.

If you find one of those Arsenal fans, watching a game, talk to him. He might be someone like me, with a much wider appreciation for CONCACAF than you realize. It might be someone new to soccer, and has latched on to a squad through which he can explore his interest. Why not encourage his interest a little? Why not accept the fact, he has not yet embraced other aspects of the sport you enjoy, but help win his trust and admiration so you can expose him to other facets of the sport?

I understand the anger, that many soccer fans only focus on Europe. I just wonder if sometimes, we're not a little quick on that trigger, and wind up excluding fans, that given a little time and patience could be matured into the kind of fan, many of you seem to be clamoring for.

I say all this not to antagonize anyone, but mostly to offer the idea, that I could easily be dubbed a "Eurosnob" by appearance, and action, but if you actually got to know me, I am not that way at all.

 

I know the passion for USL is tangible, and justified. I also understand the frustration some USL fans must feel, that the league's attendance sagged here for a variety of reasons.

I am not sure however any of that should be used to suggest non-USL fans are inferior, or "snobs". Some of us had our own reasons for not paying good money to see the USL. Some of us found different ways to support soccer locally.

Keith your attitude is right on the money: you don't need bastards like me to justify your league and your allegiance to it. Nor however, should you preen that you are a superior breed of fan though. I don't think anyone here does that consistently, but I know soccer fans in general can be elitist that way. I am guilty of similar judgments myself sometimes.

Now, we're about to gain a whole bunch of new fans. As we get closer to "liftoff", we're going to see more fans like me show up on this board. Fans who did not support USL, but are ready to support MLS. My hope is, we all embrace them as equals, even when they violently disagree with us, or dare to express new ideas.

I see the term "Eurosnob", as often being more indicative of snobbery from the accuser than the accused. I know quite a few neophyte soccer fans who support Man-U, or Real Madrid, that wouldn't know a damn thing about the USL. They have however shelled out for tickets to MLS. Shouldn't we embrace them?

Again, I accuse nobody here, I know the term meant people that exclude all CONCACAF soccer, and all US soccer, even MLS. I don't condone that, I but I do condemn using the label simply because somebody wasn't interested in the USL.

Perhaps I'm just sensitive to the whole thing because:

1. I was born in England.
2. I've never been to see a USL match.
3. I'm an angry ex-NASL fan, that still holds a grudge against that league.

That's not an easy profile to accept, to those of you who have screamed out your lungs for years, in the USL. I respect that. But, I think you'll find soon that there are more fans like me, that will start to show up on this board, and my hope is, they'll be welcomed with open arms, even if they've only ever watched Premiere League before.

 

There's no doubt that respect is a two-way street, I am sorry if I implied that it wasn't, that was not my intention.