[sydtheeagle]

While the Bowyer to Liverpool transfer was an up and running saga, there was a lot of debate on these pages about the whys and wherefores of the deal, principally centred around whether Houllier was right to sign a good player, or stark raving bonkers to sign a disreputable (not to mention incorrigible) thug. By the by, I heard today that Houllier cooled on the deal the moment the player walked into their first meeting, dressed like, you guessed it, a thug and acting like the big I am.

It now appears that so appalling is the Bowyer personality that he can neither beg, steal, nor borrow himself a new football team and whilst I have no doubt that he's found his level in a personal sense with Terrry Venables (another toe rag is ever there was one, great coach notwithstanding), he may end up having to re-sign with Leeds purely and simply due to lack of interest from elsewhere.

Has Bowyer finally been the man to prove that there IS a point at which some semblance of morality triumphs even over footballing talent? Will Bowyer ever get the message and sort himself out? What an utter waste of talent.

[usscouse]

Originally posted by sydtheeagle

Has Bowyer finally been the man to prove that there IS a point at which some semblance of morality triumphs even over footballing talent? Will Bowyer ever get the message and sort himself out? What an utter waste of talent.

Yes.... no....not in this lifetime.
and Yes...!

[M]

Bowyer's clearly a head case but has he really wasted his talent a la Gascoigne up to this point? He's done pretty well at Leeds, even with the distraction of his trial going on. He may have missed out on a World Cup squad place this year, but apart from that I don't think we can - yet - put him into the Gascoignesque league as far as pissing away a career is concerned.

[sydtheeagle]

Originally posted by M
Bowyer's clearly a head case but has he really wasted his talent a la Gascoigne up to this point? He's done pretty well at Leeds, even with the distraction of his trial going on. He may have missed out on a World Cup squad place this year, but apart from that I don't think we can - yet - put him into the Gascoignesque league as far as pissing away a career is concerned.

Agree in general, but:

1. He is pissing away his talent fast at the moment.

2. He has underachieved in a way that Gascoigne never did. Gascoigne self-destructed on the pitch (and thus injuries severely curtailed his career), whereas Bowyer, who should have won something in the region of forty caps by now, has none.

3. Gascoigne was a lovable rogue, and in spite of himself was forgiven because of that. Bowyer is a scumbag, and is hated in spite of his talents.

4. It really is becoming pretty evident now that unless Bowyer has a Damascene experience on a personal level (in short has a personality transplant) he is, no matter his skills, finished as a player on the world stage (international football). In short, his career is over before it has started.

5. And lastly, no one seems particularly bothered with the above. I get the sense that Houllier has rejected Bowyer on behalf of all of football. Simply put (the first point I made in my original post), Bowyer has defined the point where moral fibre surpasses skill as an issue of importance.

His lack of intelligence is self evident, but you would think in these days of PR gurus and image management, that Bowyer would have spent recent weeks re-evaluating his life and, see above, at least vaguely searching for the road to Damascus.

[sinner78]

Originally posted by sydtheeagle


Agree in general, but:

1. He is pissing away his talent fast at the moment.

He seems to be doing alright .
He's been a regular starter in a top premiership for afew years.He aint wasting away in some crap lower division outfit .

2. He has underachieved in a way that Gascoigne never did. Gascoigne self-destructed on the pitch (and thus injuries severely curtailed his career), whereas Bowyer, who should have won something in the region of forty caps by now, has none.

What has Gazza ever won??
One FA cup medal in a game he injured himself.
A couple of scottish medals playing for rangers.
Thats about it really.
How can anyone claim that bowyer has underacheived compared to gazza??
ha ha ,gotta be taking the piss with that one.
Gazza self destructed off the pitch with alcoholism ,fast food ,family violence ,etc...

lee bowyer should have won 40 caps??

Dont make me laugh .
Bowyer is only 22 years old .He would've won about 10 at best.
Sven would;ve picked him but the clowns who run the FA ordered him not to.

3. Gascoigne was a lovable rogue, and in spite of himself was forgiven because of that. Bowyer is a scumbag, and is hated in spite of his talents.

As much as I love gazza ,he is a wife beater.
If thats make you class him as a loveable rogue than you're a hypocrite.
Bowyer was found NOT GUILTY. Do you know what 'not guilty' means or do we have to spell it out??
Bowyer is a plays who gives 110% in every game and winds people up.Every team needs someone like that .Opposition fans probably dislike his style of play but only lame PC student types hate him for other reasons.

4. It really is becoming pretty evident now that unless Bowyer has a Damascene experience on a personal level (in short has a personality transplant) he is, no matter his skills, finished as a player on the world stage (international football). In short, his career is over before it has started.

Bowyer needs a personality change??
have you ever met him personally???
no didn't think so.
I bet good money he'll be picked in the next few england squads .You HOPE he is finished at international level but he aint .

5. And lastly, no one seems particularly bothered with the above. I get the sense that Houllier has rejected Bowyer on behalf of all of football. Simply put (the first point I made in my original post), Bowyer has defined the point where moral fibre surpasses skill as an issue of importance.

His lack of intelligence is self evident, but you would think in these days of PR gurus and image management, that Bowyer would have spent recent weeks re-evaluating his life and, see above, at least vaguely searching for the road to Damascus.

Bowyer turned down the contract offer at liverpool because it was less than what leeds offered.
You dont have to be a rocket scientist to work that out.


So to sums things up...
Dont bore us with this personal crusade against bowyer.He aint a mass murderer or anything.
That was one big yawn.

[sydtheeagle]

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk


He seems to be doing alright .
He's been a regular starter in a top premiership for afew years.He aint wasting away in some crap lower division outfit .

What has Gazza ever won??
One FA cup medal in a game he injured himself.
A couple of scottish medals playing for rangers.
Thats about it really.
How can anyone claim that bowyer has underacheived compared to gazza??
ha ha ,gotta be taking the piss with that one.
Gazza self destructed off the pitch with alcoholism ,fast food ,family violence ,etc...

Dont make me laugh .
Bowyer is only 22 years old .He would've won about 10 at best.
Sven would;ve picked him but the clowns who run the FA ordered him not to.

As much as I love gazza ,he is a wife beater.
If thats make you class him as a loveable rogue than you're a hypocrite.
Bowyer was found NOT GUILTY. Do you know what 'not guilty' means or do we have to spell it out??
Bowyer is a plays who gives 110% in every game and winds people up.Every team needs someone like that .Opposition fans probably dislike his style of play but only lame PC student types hate him for other reasons.

Bowyer needs a personality change??
have you ever met him personally???
no didn't think so.
I bet good money he'll be picked in the next few england squads .You HOPE he is finished at international level but he aint .

Bowyer turned down the contract offer at liverpool because it was less than what leeds offered.
You dont have to be a rocket scientist to work that out.

So to sums things up...
Dont bore us with this personal crusade against bowyer.He aint a mass murderer or anything.
That was one big yawn.

Point by point, then:

1. Agreed that he doing alright, but it depends how you define "alright". Is doing alright simply going about your job, in which case as you point out Bowyer IS doing alright, or is it making the most of your talent, in which case he isn't. I agree that in a broad sense playing for a top Premiership club is an achievement not to be sneered at, but I also think that when you're an international quality player whose character limits your opportunity to fulfil your potential, then you're doing less than alright. As, I suspect, Bowyer would like to play for England, I doubt he thinks that things have gone "alright" for the past couple of years although, being Bowyer, perhaps he does.

2. Gazza has won more and done more than Bowyer has. He didn't win a lot of medals though, even there, he's won more than Bowyer has to date. That said, it is fairly self evident that Gazza, like Bowyer, achieved less than a player of his talents should have.

3. There are plenty of players in their early 20s in the present England squad who have won more than ten or so caps. Alright, 40 was an exaggeration written off the top of my head, but the broader point is that a player with Bowyer's skills should be a regular in the England side by now. If you assume he might have first been selected during the year of Leeds' great European Cup run (two years ago) when he was at the top of his form, he should have played the majority of England's 20 plus games since then.

4. For once, the FA did the right thing by adding personal standards to the footballing qualities needed to represent England, a somewhat belated realisation but a welcome one, nonetheless. Clearly, you are happy for anyone to play for the country so long as they're a great footballer. I am not. We disagree. Fair enough.

5. You have a point about being a wife-beater, but what has "saved" Gazza as a person is his integrity and honesty in coming forward and saying "I have a problem and I want to change". That has won him far more love and respect (not least from me) than his football skills ever have from the public at large. You can forgive, or change, someone with humility but there is no hope for an incorribly arrogant thug. Can you imagine Lee Bowyer standing up and saying "I have looked in the mirror and I don't like what I see?"

6. Bowyer WAS found not guilty, but beating up the bloke in Leeds was not what I accused him of. To be honest, my views on his problems were aired at length in the old thread and I don't have the energy to re-write them all now. You seem to know them anyway. But in short form, it's everything from his attitude to his magnet relationship with trouble of one sort or another (drugs, drinking, indiscipline, arrogance, etc.) that make me dislike him and think he has no place playing for England. But if you have no problem with his history, that's up to you. Personally, I have more time for lame PC students than I do for Lee Bowyer.

6. Yes, I have met him personally (for about two minutes) and I have been "in his company" (no more than standing in the same bar) for a little longer than that. Suffice it to say that I hope my son doesn't grow up to be like him. I don't profess to know him, but I do know a thug when I see one.

7. In the end, Houllier withdrew the contract offer. That is an established fact. He wanted the player. He made an offer. He met him. They talked. He didn't want him anymore. Work the rest out for yourself.

8. I sincerely hope that Bowyer, an absolutely brilliant football player who is immensely enjoyable to watch, turns himself around. If he does, I will be the first person to applaud and the first to want him in the England team. But there is more to life than brilliance on the pitch and as I see it, he really is an appalling character at the moment.

[Matt Clark]

Agree in principle, but both the use of an alcoholic wife-beater as a standard against which to judge Bowyer (or anyone, for that matter) and the idea that, at 24 years of age, Lee Bowyer either cannot or will not enjoy a long and worthwhile international career, are wrong.

Bowyer will play for England this season.

[sydtheeagle]

Originally posted by Matt Clark

Bowyer will play for England this season.

It's an interesting question, isn't it? Of course, it all depends in the first place on his form, but assuming that is good then it will be one of the season's more interesting decisions.

I think Sven would pick him if left to his own devices, and clearly the FA would prefer that he did not, possibly ever. My feeling is that you're wrong. Put it this way: I don't think he will play for England before Christmas, anyway.

Also worth bearing in mind is that the civil suit resulting from the court case will also keep his name in the news for some time to come, in the most negative way possible, and the FA will probably not go near him if that is the case. Also, if the Civil suit goes against Bowyer (in any number of ways, not just the verdict) then that could be just the excuse the FA need to nail the door shut for a long time, if not for good.