[kevbrunton]

I'm not sure if this concept has come up for discussion here on the boards, but I'm sure it's been thought of before. It was mentioned in relation to another thread and I decided that the discussion of having 4 ARs belonged in its own thread, so here goes...


There's been alot of discussion about having 2 center referees -- some passionately for it, others passionately against it. However, rather than having 2 CRs on the field, what about having 4 ARs.

However, the additional ARs would not have ALL the same responsibilities as the current ARs. What if...

The system would be fairly similar to the diagonal system of control. First, terminology-wise...

For the two ARs that are in the current position of the ARs, let's call them Senior ARs -- SARs.

For the two new / additional ARs, let's call them Junior ARs -- JARs.

In this situation, Senior and Junior mean nothing about experience or capabilities, it's just to be able to distinguish between the for discussion purposes.

Under the 4 AR system, the SARs continue to do everything they've always done EXCEPT call offside. There is no need to stay with the second last defender, they just need to stay in the best position to do their other jobs -- they call the ball out of touch, over the goal line, assist on fouls in their "area of control", etc.

The JARs do NOTHING but call offside. They don't need to worry about anything else. Their sole purpose for being is to stay with the second last defender and make the offside call.

Some might protest that this is worse than having 2 CRs because now you have 3 people calling fouls, etc., but I don't think so. There is still only 1 referee in charge. He would have the right to waive down the AR under this system just as he current can. He can delegate whatever level of authority he'd like -- primarly by defining the "area of control" for the SARs.

You have no overlapping of responsibility between the ARs on same side or on the same end. Also, the CR could more easily let play become further away from him when in the SAR's area of control -- he doesn't need to worry about the SAR missing a foul because he is looking for offside -- which happens.

OK, what do you guys think?

[timmy409]

not a good idea because then the clubs have to hire more ar which would cost them a bunch of money each year

[Greyhnd00]

Originally posted by kevbrunton
I'm not sure if this concept has come up for discussion here on the boards, but I'm sure it's been thought of before. It was mentioned in relation to another thread and I decided that the discussion of having 4 ARs belonged in its own thread, so here goes...


There's been alot of discussion about having 2 center referees -- some passionately for it, others passionately against it. However, rather than having 2 CRs on the field, what about having 4 ARs.

However, the additional ARs would not have ALL the same responsibilities as the current ARs. What if...

The system would be fairly similar to the diagonal system of control. First, terminology-wise...

For the two ARs that are in the current position of the ARs, let's call them Senior ARs -- SARs.

For the two new / additional ARs, let's call them Junior ARs -- JARs.

In this situation, Senior and Junior mean nothing about experience or capabilities, it's just to be able to distinguish between the for discussion purposes.

Under the 4 AR system, the SARs continue to do everything they've always done EXCEPT call offside. There is no need to stay with the second last defender, they just need to stay in the best position to do their other jobs -- they call the ball out of touch, over the goal line, assist on fouls in their "area of control", etc.

The JARs do NOTHING but call offside. They don't need to worry about anything else. Their sole purpose for being is to stay with the second last defender and make the offside call.

Some might protest that this is worse than having 2 CRs because now you have 3 people calling fouls, etc., but I don't think so. There is still only 1 referee in charge. He would have the right to waive down the AR under this system just as he current can. He can delegate whatever level of authority he'd like -- primarly by defining the "area of control" for the SARs.

You have no overlapping of responsibility between the ARs on same side or on the same end. Also, the CR could more easily let play become further away from him when in the SAR's area of control -- he doesn't need to worry about the SAR missing a foul because he is looking for offside -- which happens.

OK, what do you guys think?

Not bad for a start but I still think the blind corners on the far side from the SAR is not addressed or covered. Still think we need the second center and Ill support your additional ARs.....

[jc508]

What if the far AR who is away from the action make the calls for the ball going into touch. The near AR could indicate the direction or default to the far AR to do so with the Ref still able to make the call for the restart.

This would allow the near AR to concentrate on Offside and on fouls that the Ref could not see.

One problem would be if the AR on the north side of the field disagreed with the AR on the south side of the field on
1) whether the ball crossed the goal line
2) whether it is a goal or not
3) whether it is a GK or CK.

We could have the AR who is nearer to the action make the call on the restart, subject to review of the Ref.

Ultimately, such considerations come back to the application of video tape. Personally, I think there should be no video tape review of the game, but allow league officials to order a replay if a significant error was found on the review of the video.

Just my opinion.

[pkCrouse]

Originally posted by Greyhnd00
... I still think the blind corners on the far side from the SAR is not addressed or covered. ...

Since the SAR is no longer responsible for offside, I suppose he wouldn't need to be restricted to only half the touchline, would he? If the SAR's are now free to roam the entire touchline, the CR would flatten his diagonal considerably. That might help solve the coffin-corner problem. I guess you'd have to work out a contingency for breakaway situations whereby the JAR would also act as goal judge on quick transitions? Just thinking out loud.

[kevbrunton]

Originally posted by timmy409
not a good idea because then the clubs have to hire more ar which would cost them a bunch of money each year

This would only need to be done at the higher level games where the speed of play, etc. makes it much harder for the current AR's to get all the calls correct.

For example, in our area, the U10 and U11 games use club linesmen with a single paid referee. Then U12 and above they use 3 paid referees. You could change it so that U12 thru U16 you use 3 referees and U17 and above you go to the 5 referees.

Originally posted by Greyhnd00
Not bad for a start but I still think the blind corners on the far side from the SAR is not addressed or covered. Still think we need the second center and Ill support your additional ARs.....

The CR would cover the corners furthest from the SAR just like the current DSC. However, since the SAR isn't watching / worrying about offside, there is less need for the CR to be "close to play" when it is in the SAR's area of control. He can stay more out in the center so that he is well positioned for the corner away from the SAR when play is switched quickly.

Originally posted by jc508
What if the far AR who is away from the action make the calls for the ball going into touch. The near AR could indicate the direction or default to the far AR to do so with the Ref still able to make the call for the restart.

This would allow the near AR to concentrate on Offside and on fouls that the Ref could not see.

One problem would be if the AR on the north side of the field disagreed with the AR on the south side of the field on
1) whether the ball crossed the goal line
2) whether it is a goal or not
3) whether it is a GK or CK.

We could have the AR who is nearer to the action make the call on the restart, subject to review of the Ref.

These kinds of problems are exactly the reason I separated the responsibilities -- one calls offside, the other calls everything else. Since the one calling offside is not going to be making these calls, we have NO opportunities for the type of confusion you point out.

Originally posted by jc508
Ultimately, such considerations come back to the application of video tape. Personally, I think there should be no video tape review of the game, but allow league officials to order a replay if a significant error was found on the review of the video.

Just my opinion.

I'd just as soon stay as far away from any kind of video review/replay system as possible. I just don't think it'll work in soccer.

[kevbrunton]

Originally posted by pkCrouse

Since the SAR is no longer responsible for offside, I suppose he wouldn't need to be restricted to only half the touchline, would he? If the SAR's are now free to roam the entire touchline, the CR would flatten his diagonal considerably. That might help solve the coffin-corner problem. I guess you'd have to work out a contingency for breakaway situations whereby the JAR would also act as goal judge on quick transitions? Just thinking out loud.

True, he wouldn't. However, the point of having the extra ARs is twofold -- to get more accurate calling of offside and to get better coverage of the field (IMO, the first is more important). If you allow the SAR to roam from end to end, then you create the problem mentioned of having 3 officials watching play and none of them are in position when a fast counter occurs. Also, you wind up having two AR's in close proximity to one another and that would be confusing to everyone involved (including the CR) as to which one is calling which infractions.

[Greyhnd00]

Originally posted by kevbrunton


True, he wouldn't. However, the point of having the extra ARs is twofold -- to get more accurate calling of offside and to get better coverage of the field (IMO, the first is more important). If you allow the SAR to roam from end to end, then you create the problem mentioned of having 3 officials watching play and none of them are in position when a fast counter occurs. Also, you wind up having two AR's in close proximity to one another and that would be confusing to everyone involved (including the CR) as to which one is calling which infractions.

Solve all of the aforementioned problems by giving the JARs the ability to call fouls not in the view of the other referees.

[pkCrouse]

Getting a bit complicated now. I think before I'd go that far, I'd consider stationing the 2 new AR's at opposite corners from the traditional AR's. They would call balls out of play on their endline and touchline, including goals. I'd also have them watch for foul play in their corner. Offside would be the sole responsibility of the other 2 AR's.

[blech]

I'm personally inclined to think that 2 CRs and 2ARs makes more sense (with arguably nominal increase in cost since there often is a 4th official at games in any event - why have him/her waiting for an injury, get him/her out there). I know it doesn't do anything directly to improve the offsides situation, but especially at the more competitive level there ought to be another official.

As for 2 additional ARs, I would be inclined to give them the identical responsibilities. As is the case now, the CR makes the final call and can wave off the ARs if s/he chooses, but it would be the regular practice of the CR to wave off any offsides flag unless BOTH of the involved ARs have their flags up. If benefit of the doubt goes to the offense, put in a system that brings that goal about.