[Dark Savante]

Very personal thread this. For once, we have a thread where your word is absolute. Your view is your view and as I'm asking for your personal feelings on this or that player who holds a special place in your heart, feel free eulogize of demonize as much as you want to do.

who are your Heroes and Villains during your time supporting Manchester United? What did they do to endear themselves to you? Alternatively, how did a 'Villian' get on your bad side and let you feel like you'd been personally let down?

This isn't your generic, mindless thread where you just reel off a bunch of good or bad players. In the first place a player must surely have smething about him outside of being very good or bad at his job to cause him to be a player who is etched on your psyche/heart, right?

I've got quite a few for both categories...and quite a few excellent players who although I wouldn't call 'em villains, left me feeling personally let down by the time they left the club. Will post up if this thing gets enough interest. Hope it does as it's your chance to get all kinds of things of your chest

[johno]

Hmm... very interesting thread.

I've got a few Heroes

Ruud, Nicky Butt, Paul Scholes, Ronaldo, and Irwin. I've probably got more heroes but for now these will do.

Ronaldo sticks out because Ruud, Scholes, Butt and Irwin are virtually model pros who pretty much let their play do the talking for them. Scholes for me is the player who has sacrificed VERY VERY much for our club over the years.

He started off as an off striker and did very well. Scholes' skill at goal scoring was such that he could easily have gone to a few top sides and played as an off striker or in the attacking role that required no defensive responsibility and all kinds of offensive seniority.

He did what was best for the team and moved back to AM and then became one of the best in that position while having to play 2nd fiddle to Roy Keane. He became one of the best AMs in the game becoming a fantastic player who did exactly what the team needed, when it needed it. A telling pass, a run into the box to get onto a cross... showing up late to blast home a shot. Holding possesion and making sensible use of the ball - you name it and he did it.

Then in Keane's decline he became CM. Never in charge of distribution while Keano was here, he sacrificed his free role to hold Keane's hand somewhat and take on more running that he ever did in his career. His skill at CM is such that in every aspect save tackling he's above average. For someone who started off as a high class forward its an amazing transition - all done with grace and in silence and with a joy, exhuberation and style that few can match.

Nicky Butt won't be remembered fondly by many. But what I recall of him was an extremly organized CM who when he started out had a range of passing somewhere between that of Keane and Scholes while not being creative - doing just about everything that was asked of him. He could shoot, tackle had enormous stamina reserves and was the ultimate role player.

We almost, almost didn't miss Keane when he was out or Scholes when he was out or Ince after he left because of this lad. He always had huge huge boots to fill early in his career and as a result he never really had an identity of his own. That I think more than anything else cost him his career because once those names moved on or once Keane fell into deep decline we expected him to be more than a role player when that's virtually all he ever did. Had he been given a loan period to get some first team play under his belt before he stagnated, it might have saved his career.

Irwin defined a position for a footballing generation and nothing more really needs to be said.

Ruud - my Nistelove needs not be defined again does it?

Ronaldo - he plays with the flair of Best. Really, he does. He's been harshly judged. Its not easy to come to a new country, a new team, a new league with a different language and climate and philosphy of football and play a foreign position. To become one of the world's best at that new position in that new team in a new league in slightly over 3 seasons is a remarkable achievement.

He'd have been a favorite of mine without this season's start and his evolution, but with the way he's matured into almost the perfect winger (his cross to Rooney for his first sitter missed last weekend was something we'd never have seen from him in his first couple seasons) for us he's become a hero of mine.

Villains...

Yorke, Silvestre, Richardson, O'Shea, Stam

Yorke is a villain for me because despite his great talent his attitude killed his career and had he played with the dedication he only began to show for his country after he was over the hill - he could have taken T&T to the world cup before now! Imagine he's not even considered the best T&T player despite winning a treble and captaining the team to the World Cup!

Richardson lacks even the talent of most egomaniacs but is infuriating in his approach to the game. His potential and our need makes his injustice greater.

O'Shea for me is a villain because he seems like he doesn't try. He's a talented player with good height and strength but doesn't assert himself enough to be a hardman or polish his game enough to be a finesse player. With his problems he's become a drag and delivers 1 good performance at the right time to ensure he remains in the manager's good books. After his debut season he's been a HUGE dissapointment.

Stam is a villain for me because he did the one thing certain to get him dropped and his departure was for me the biggest reason we failed to do anything in Europe for a few seasons and he caused us to go into a rebuilding stage before it was really necessary. He was such a talented player and to me he's one of the few great players that United lost (not including those lost to tragedy) while he was still great. Strachan, Ince, Ruud and one or two others. And it was all his fault!!!

[johno]

What the ******** Lurkers DELURK!!!

[Sofabloke]

Heroes:
- the big three; Robbo, Hughes and Keane for reasons obvious, drive, passion, strength, desire, nastiness, verbal expression - nobody represents the spirit of the club more than these three
- Buchan (as he was my first hero)
- Schmeichs, for all those heart in mouth, ohmygod they're past our defence moments
- Cantona, especially at OT as no player has ever 'owned' the crowd and dominated the arena as much as him for any club ever

Villains: Only one really, Laurant Blanc - was pretty much responsible for every goal we conceded when he played and nobody else it seemed could see it

[jscott23]

Heroes:
#1 is Georgie Best. I met the man, knew the man, loved the man.
Norman Whiteside, loved the promise, disappointed by the end, either because of injury or other off-field influences. But God he gave us hope in the 80's.
Bryan Robson, he could do it all, and did
Sparky, scorer of great goals
Dennis Irwin, not a great talent, just played his guts out every day (Gary Neville reminds me of him)
Pallister & Bruce, they go together
The great Dane, Peter Schmeichel
Eric Cantona, swagger defined
Ryan Giggs, greatest left winger ever!
Paul Scholes, the ginger prince, still a great player
Roy Keane, there's only one Keano!
Ole, another true Red legend!
SAF, the man behind it all

Villians: (I still love these guys for what they did in a United jersey, but they have disappointed me somewhere along the way)
Dennis Law, for sending us to the 2nd division, playing for City for God's sake!
Jaap Stam, for not seeing the bigger picture, he could have been legendary
Paul Ince, for being a bitter little prick after leaving United
Becks, he left us for Posh long before he went to Madrid
Rio, for letting us down when we needed him most

[Invincible]

Heroes:

Roy Keane: When I first started supporting United, I didn't know what position he played(I didn't watch football before United) so I thought he was a striker lol. Soon enough I learned the positions, and I realised how essential he was to the team. Without him the team didnt look the same. He stood up for himself and the rest of the team, took no crap from no one and delt out some serious ass whoopins, so much so, that other midfielders, sometimes bigger than him, actually feared him. Awesome.

Paul Scholes: The ginga ninja, need I say more? His rocket shots, his trademark leaping headers. Amazing.

Ryan Giggs: Electrifying, he was back then what Ronaldo is to me now, I just enjoyed his mazy runs, and the shear panic he caused in defenses.

David Beckham: Was the face of the team, the icon. His ball manipulation was phenomenal.

Dwight Yorke: The reason I started watching football in the first place. Back then Wendy Fitzwilliam(sp?) had just won miss Universe, and now another Trini was representing us on an even bigger stage. I enjoyed all the goals, especially the trademark diving headers, where have those gone these days? I also enjoyed his trademark jump-pump-fist celebration.

Villains:

The Neville Brothers: To me it seemed as if they were the root of all our defensive frailties, they were so much crap for so long, why did Gary wait so long to come good?

[sdotsom]

Heroes -

Keano - nothing needs to be said.
Beckham - Was the face of this club for awhile, but was one player who gave EVERYTHING to United everytime he was on the pitch.
Giggs - killing teams left and right on the wing, and still gives his all. Class.
Ole - once again, nothing to be said.

Villains-
Yorke - After 1999 he really let us down.

[Dark Savante]

177 views, 5 contributions...and there's me thinking the board would want to get in on this one, d'oh!

[holytoledo]

This is another difficult one from DS. Do you just have a giant wall in your room where you brainstorm possible thread ideas and throw them on the wall?

Heroes
Keano-obviously.
Butt-His style of play was always going to have its fans, I'm one of them. Underrated imo. I couldn't really fault him for leaving, he could have left earlier I suppose. Pity his form took such a turn after leaving United.
Ole-Stand up guy. Class through and through. He's scored a goal now and then as well. He seems out of all the United players to be the one who if you ran into on the street would be the most likely to give you the time of day. We all love Ole so I don't really need to go on that much further.
Irwin-Mr. reliable. The fact that he played at a relatively high level before retiring tells you something about his work ethic and attitude. Wunderbar.

Villains
Yorke-Like stated earlier, had his problems with his attitude, although I don't really consider him a "villain" but more of a let down. I don't dislike him at all though.
Silvestre-He never seems to want to leave the club, but if he really cared that much about United I wish he would just realize how poor he is and move on for the good of the club. It is so dissapointing to see a player ROUTINELY ******** up game after game. I'll be grey in the hair before I'm in my mid20s if silvestre doesn't move on.
Ruud-Seemed to throw a bit of a hissy fit before leaving. Sad since had this thread been done a year ago he would have been in the hero category. The events around his departure left a sour taste in my mouth.
KRich-it has been said before. I don't care for his attitude at all.

There you go. 4 heroes and 4 villains, although tbh I could have filled a page with heroes. Loyalty, commitment and work rate are the things (like most i'm sure) that I rate highest in a player and those are present in abundance with the players I selected as heroes.

Another neat idea DS. Pat yourself on the back. Curious, is anyone keeping track of how many free drinks DS has earned from the rest of us here for all he's done? I imagine it's enough to kill him several times over.

[JC7rox]

Well, I'll take a break from my constant paper writing in order to give this some thought, since DS is unsatisfied with our output.

I'll use Joseph Campbell's three stages of Heroism, or the "Heroic Journey" (Joseph Campbell-The Hero's Journey).
Stage I: Seperation/Departure
(I'll use the call of adventure and the crossing of the threshold for this one.)
Stage II: Trials and Victories of Initiation
(Road of Trials, temptation and atonement)
Stage III: Return and Reintegration with Society
("the return to the world of common day", Master of the Two Worlds, Freedom to Live)
[Is that enough thought for ya, DS? ]

Heroes!!!!

Alan Smith-
Alan Smith crossed the Pennines, came from his childhood club, Leeds United to the deadly rival, Manchester United. Having faced the adversity of relegation and being forced to part with his home club (seperation), he accepts the call to action and crosses towards enemy territory to join us, the evil Reds. With no one sure of whether he would give his all for us, whether he was trustworthy, or whether he would fit in to our atmosphere, Smith takes it in stride. He, in the face of all adversity and many a hope he would fail, walks into our line-up during an injury crises and perseveres. Scores several crucial goals to open the season, he is fully accepted by the ManUtd supporters as one of their own (reintegration).

Eric Cantona-
Another transfer from Leeds. Comes to United with the tag of being rash and uncoachable, gives our club flair and magic. An error in judgement (questionable) gives him seperation (lengthy ban) from the club, as we instantly fall apart. After a lengthy lay-off, and our failure to do without, he needs to re-establish his dominance. Could he return and impact the team after such a lengthy lay-off, keep his temper in check, and regain the trust of his team-mates (adversity)? Cantona arises from the ashes and battles his demons to lead us to the Double (reintegration).

Diego Forlan-
He came from Uruguay, he made the Scousers cry!! DIEGO, OHH!

Villains!!!!!

Keith(Kieran) Richards(on)-
Because he acts like he's Keith Richards, takes spots away from upcoming youngsters, and pounds his chest as if we owe him our existance every once and a while when he does something worthwhile.

(Fabien Barthez, Tim Howard, Roy Carrol, Mark Bosnich, Ricardo, Massimo Taibi, you know where I'm going)-
no need for explanation

Hero/Anti-Hero (players who are not your typical hero, but go through the hero phases, and their light/way/destiny is unknown)!!!!!

Cristiano Ronaldo-
Ronaldo is an interesting character in that he fits the hero and villain patterns. From his assimilation to the country and weather, where most players of his ilk have failed, to the infamous World Cup scandal/transfer speculation, Ronaldo is an enigma. His call to action is reminiscent of the Greek/biblical heroes in that he was from a foreign land, called to duty from obscurity (not saying Sporting, just the manner in which we signed him, without warning, as an unknown quantity). Almost instantly successful, his trials and tribulations face him almost as instantly. Branded a diver, a cheat, a female genitalia, his journey is as long as it is tough. For years, he is criticized as having no end product, and being selfish. He clashes with team-mates, Alan Smith notably on the pitch, Ruud off the pitch.

When Rooney comes to the team, Ronaldo finds a rival (friendly as it could be) whose reputation and potential seem to overshadow Ronaldo. Rooney's hype and spotlight kicks Ronaldo to the side. While many players would look for a team with the spotlight, Ronaldo remains, and battles to bring back the attention to his talents and successes. Among the fans, he remains an unknown quantity, and remained known as a diver and someone whose end product did not exist. His performances for his country, scintillating, but his club form fluctuating, Ronaldo, in good form, prepares for the World Cup.

Do I need to say anything about the Real Madrid fiasco or the Rooney/WC scandal? Touching only on the Real Madrid thing, he ventures and flirts with the possibility of greener pasturees. Certain situations with supporters of a certain country make his return to his club almost unthinkable. Death threats, home vandalized (supposed), and family threatened, his future here is uncertain.

Hated, Ronaldo returns to Manchester with a big question mark on his head. Shoot, the question mark still remains, but his performances this season, his unselfishness, his raising of his game, and his rise from his almost career suicide make him heroic. He journeyed to get here, proved his worth, ostracized himself with some mistakes, but was capable of regaining and surpassing his former adulation. While his loyalties remain a doubt, there is no need for strict loyalty in the anti-hero. Western heroes never remain where their heroism was performed. They always fade into the sunset. Ronaldo may remain here, or he may go this summer, but his heroism has shown during his stay, and now more than ever he has proven himself a hero.

------------------------------------------
Gasp. Is that good enough for ya, Mr. Savante? I've been writing all day, and took some time out from school work to do this. I have one more anti-hero to write about, Van Nistelrooy, but by following my current outline, maybe you could see what I would've written. I want to come back to this, but I might not be able to. Anyway, hope yous enjoy.