I’m not asking this because he’s currently leading MLS in scoring. I’m asking because he’s on pace to score 100 goals sometime next season, which would be his 10th (presuming he plays in the league) and he’s only 30 so he’s likely got a few more seasons left to pad his stats. At first glance, I don’t think of Cunningham as a Hall-of-Famer. He’s been really inconsistent in his MLS career – he’s come off the bench 83 times! - and we all know he’s done very little in his 10 national team caps. A player with such an undistinguished international career can’t be a Hall of Famer, can he? But when I look more closely at his numbers, I start to change my mind. After scoring tonight against Houston, Cunningham has 88 career goals. Aside from being tied for fourth most in MLS history, it has him on pace to average 10 a year for the first nine seasons of his career, assuming he can poke in two more the final nine games this year. Also, depending on how long he plays, not to mention the three players in front of him, he could be even He’s also a much better passer and playmaker then I realized and then he’s ever gotten credit for. With three helpers this week, he’s up to nine for the season and 55 for his career. For someone who has followed the league closely since its inception, I couldn’t believe I didn’t know that Cunningham actually had 13 helpers in 2001. Cunningham hasn’t won an MLS Cup but he has won an Open Cup (02) and a Supporters’ Shield (04), so it’s not like he never won any trophies, and team accomplishments can sway voters. For the past couple of years, I’ve kind of assumed the 100-goal plateau would make you a lock for the HOF the way 3,000 hits does (or used to) in baseball. I mean, when Jason Kreis hit 100 goals, you had to figure he was HOF-bound when he was done. Afterall, he’s also MLS leading goal-scorer, at least for now. But if Kreis, who also doesn’t have much of a national team career (14 caps, 1 goal) is in the HOF, then Cunningham should merit it, too, right? So I guess the questions aren’t actually about Cunningham, but Kreis and the merit of the 100 goal plateau. Should 100-goals make you a lock for the HOF? Keep in mind that Jaime Moreno (104) Ante Razov (96), Taylor Twellman (73 and much younger than the others) and Carlos Ruiz (69 and also younger) are either at the 100-goal mark or will likely get there before they finish playing in MLS. It will be very interesting to see how the 100-goal plateau is judged and how guys like Cunningham and Kreis, who have been solid but not spectacular MLS players but who have done little or nothing abroad and with the national team, are judged by the HOF voters. I mean, we need to have standards and they need to be consistently applied but that creates a slippery slope. The problem is, there are so many different criteria for being in the US Soccer Hall of Fame. Does your national team career carry more weight than your club career? Do domestic accomplishments mean more than what you do abroad? And that doesn’t even bring in the chicks, who are competing with the guys for votes but have a totally different set of criteria upon which they are judged. The MLS era players have no precedent against which to be judged. The guys like Waldo and Balboa who played in MLS aren’t in the HOF because of what they did in the league because, for the most part, their MLS careers were pretty non-descript. (John Harkes being an exception.) So, who do you compare Cunningham and Kreis to? It makes for good debate, so that’s good for soccer, but the HOF needs to establish what defines a HOF worthy MLS career and it will be interesting to see if, in time, Kreis and Cunningham fit that bill.
How can we discuss Cunny in the HOF? The All Knowing, All Wise Peter Nowak didn't even think he was good enough to make the "alternates" list for the ASG. Peter probably thinks he should be sent back to Africa.
I don't even want to talk about Cunny in the HOF, until someone sorts out Thomas Dooley not being in there yet. Also I think what you are seeing this year, is the same thing you saw in 2001. Coaches that want to save their jobs, say get the ball to Cunningham then get your ass around goal. The smart ones keep doing it, unfortunatly for Cunny he hasn't played for a smart one yet. As for his 10 national team caps. He was hardly given the chances Twellman and several others were given. Still in Germany, when the US needed goals late against Italy and Ghana, you didn't stop for a minute and think of the most dominate US player coming off the bench in MLS and wish Arena had given Cunny an actual real chance to make the squad? I know I did.
Holy tangent, Batman! It takes a special kind of person to criticize a coach who selected the players and tactics which beat Chelsea.
It's a very interesting question since none of the 100 goal forwards (potential) have much of a US Nats career. (I'm assuming that Moreno's and Ruiz' Nats careers don't count.) I would tentatively say yes they all deserve a spot. TT could be interesting. Say he never has much of a Nats career either but goes to Europe next winter and plays so-so. If that happened (and I hope it doesn't) then you would have to compare him unfavorably to McBride. But that's just speculation. Your other observation, is a problem for all HoF's and I don't see some clear cut criteria being made ever. I would say for the men, a) a lengthy US Nats career probably gets them in. But you can't confine all HoF nominations to that because you are giving too much power to the Nats coach(es). So then you have to look at b) MLS career and/or c) Euro career I would say that b takes precedence over c all things being equal. So the 100 goals scorers above should be taken very seriously. But in a way 100 goal scorers are easy. What about a fellow, a winger say, who has a long and fruitful career but who's Nats tenure is short? Steve Ralston? Ben Olsen? How do you define the line or compare them to the goal scorers? By what their teams achieved as you imply Sandon?
I don't know what criteria you use, but by any measure Steve Ralston should be in. I mean, 103 assists ain't easy to get. And, if he somehow manages to get 11 more before he hangs 'em up, he'll go out as the league's top playmaker (statistically). Plus, while he didn't have a great nats career, 33 caps and 4 goals are pretty good numbers. Ralston SHOULD be a first-ballot HOFer. As for the general point about criteria, I guess it should be compared to their peers at their respective position. I do know that at the rate it's going now, and with the current criteria for selection that limits the voting AND combines the chicks, the Hall is gonna be playing catch-up for a lot of years with a lot of good MLS players. That's a given. As I've stated before, Dooley's exclusion from the HOF totally belittles the prestige of being voted in and makes selection process look foolish and the voters look like morons. And Hugo Perez and Bruce Murray not being in doesn't do much for the glory of the Hall, either.
Heres the thing.. we dont know what kind of MLS stats or MLS career achievements make a hall of famer. To date HOF largely is decided by a players nats career. As of right now, it seems almost solely based on their nats career. My feeling is that if Cunningham will really need over 120 goals, maybe as many as 150 to be a sure hall of famer. I dont think 100 goals will be good enough.. 10 goals a year over 10 years seems like the hallmark of a good player, but not an outstanding one. I will say Cunningham may be the most underappreciated player in MLS history.
I think Roy Lassiter (same amount of goals, fewer seasons, more hardware and a better Nats career) has that honor. That dude gets dissed left and right on BS, like his goals just happened because he was on these great teams with master playmakers and anyone could have done what he did, he was just the lucky SOB who got to put them in the net. Your point about us not knowing what kind of career an MLS player needs is a good one and one that warrants a lot of close scrutiny. So far, as I noted before, the MLS players who have gone in really did very little in MLS that was HOF-worthy, save for Harkes.
It takes a special kind of person to pretend that the result of the all-star actually meant anything.
Every time I see Jeff all I can think about is the fact that if it wasn't for Zippy the Pinhead he would still be in Columbus.
Huh??? I think you're starting from a bad assumption. I see no way to consider Balboa's MLS career as non-descript, especially if you think John Harks is an exception...
If Cunningham wins the MVP this season and scores over 110 goals in his MLS career, he will be a Hall of Famer. Even at 30, I could see a CCC club picking up this guy. IMHO, Cunningham is one of the few players in MLS whom I honestly believe can succeed as a striker at that level. He has that "it" that almost all American strikers don't have. Say what you want about him, but he can very easily score 20 goals and have 13 assists this season. Which to me, would be one of the top 3 seasons in MLS history for a forward.
Would he really be just above average when he is given the MVP Award this year. Plus, wasn't he second in goal scoring this year?
The criteria for inclusion in the Hall of Fame for players who didn't make a substantial contribution to the national team haven't really been set. You can certainly make an argument that guys like Balboa and Harkes are worthy of election based on their MLS contributions alone, but that's speculation since their national team contributions were substantial. Somebody like Brian McBride will get in for the same reason as Eric Wynalda: substantial national team contribution despite a good but not great club career. It's guys like Cunningham, Roy Lassiter, Taylor Twellman, Jason Kreis, and Steve Ralston that are going to be challenges for the voters. There will always be some percentage of voters who will think, "well, they played good in MLS, but if they were really that great, they would have done better on the national team," or in a foreign league, or whatever, and that will cost them votes. For the record, I think all of those guys are worthy of induction into an MLS-specific Hall of Fame. I don't know if that makes them worthy of Oneonta or not. And yes, Thomas Dooley should be in the Hall of Fame. The fact that you can point to guys who should be in but aren't, or vice versa, is normal for Halls of Fame in any sport.
An interesting potential criteria for HoF inclusion that Sandon mentioned is hardware won in MLS. I'm not sure how I feel about it. It seems like it helps potential NFL players in the minds of voters there. However with just 10-12 teams in MLS these days, most teams wil get some sort of hardware every four-five years, minimum. I guess hardware should only be taken into account if the players has a shit load of the stuff like, oh, Jeff Agoos?
Good point. All those goals Cunningham is scoring for the Crew this year have badly jaded my outlook. Hello?
Yes, i'm here... i'm the one NOT quoting alleged racist remarks that are complete non-sequitors to the thread. Cunningham isn't a bad player... its your sense of "humor"? that is flawed.
Or Richie Williams. Yeah, most teamswill get some hardware. Yet, Balboa, Wynalda and Ramos managed to not win any. Between the three of them, they never won an MLS Cup, an Open Cup, a Supporters' Shield or the CONCACAF Champions' Cup. They also never made the MLS Best XI. That's why I say their careers are non-descript. (I made a mistake last night in excluding Lalas from the non-descript group. He actually made a Best XI and he won MLS Cup, the Open Cup, CONCACAF and a Shield with LA.) I don't think just winning the hardware should get you in. I mean, Kris Kelderman and Clint Peay won a lot of hardware, but I'm not pimping for for them. But a guy like Jesse Marsch? Three Open Cups and an MLS Cup and Shield with the Fire, where he was a starter. Now you've got a good argument. (He also won 2 MLS Cups, an Open Cup and a Shield with United, but didn't play much for them.) Williams argument is even better. Three MLS Cups, 2 Shields, 2 Open Cups (one with the Kickers), a CONCACAF Champions' Cup and a USL title before MLS started. Plus he has 20 caps, including winning a Gold Cup title. That's a lot of trophies to ignore.
Good points all around. Probably the only thing to add is that they might help (or hurt) a marginal candidate, whatever that is.