[balla_basti]

What do you guys reckon? U think thats the case?

i really believe that the lack of the Vorstopper or in today's world the conventional DM could prove our undoing.

Even in the 2002 World Cup we had Carsten Ramelow, a player who was severely underrated. He had immense ability on the ball and he was more than a decent distributor in addition to being a good tackler and a great reader of the game.

We miss a player like that in this team. Frings is no DM and i have yet to see too much of Kehl to convince me that he can play this role.

[Bayerntone]

This is the case. But searching hi and lo, who are more qualified? There is a scarcity of talents who fit for that position in the NT.

[todd11]

Originally Posted by balla_basti

Carsten Ramelow, a player who was severely underrated. He had immense ability on the ball and he was more than a decent distributor in addition to being a good tackler and a great reader of the game.

I agree completely with your premise that the DM position is a big problem. However, Ramelow--- although he was obviously an important cog in the team of '02...for me will always be the dictionary definition of "anti-fussballer". Technically proficient he ain't. That said, this current team could use a real destroyer like Ramelow in front of the young defense.

[AGF Aarhus]

This has always been the position from which the German NT was built. Not possible with the current group, though.

[The Beautiful Frame]

Originally Posted by balla_basti

What do you guys reckon?

I reckon you don't know what a Vorstopper is. It's not a midfield position. In a system using one-on-one defence, the Vorstopper is the one marking the central attacker. Basically, a Vorstopper is a centre back. Karl-Heinz Förster was a Vorstopper, Jürgen Kohler too.

As to your point, I disagree. I'm not worried about our midfield. Frings can play the position well enough, as can Kehl. You can also use Ballack there, he's a natural DM anyway.

[ForeverRed]

Originally Posted by The Beautiful Frame

I reckon you don't know what a Vorstopper is. It's not a midfield position. In a system using one-on-one defence, the Vorstopper is the one marking the central attacker. Basically, a Vorstopper is a centre back. Karl-Heinz Förster was a Vorstopper, Jürgen Kohler too.

As to your point, I disagree. I'm not worried about our midfield. Frings can play the position well enough, as can Kehl. You can also use Ballack there, he's a natural DM anyway.

There is a difference between playing Kehl there and Frings. Frings is not a DM, he is a more free roaming player who utilizies much more of the space, especially down the flanks.

And for Ballack to be effective in that role, different tactics would be needed, ala leverkusen.

[balla_basti]

@ The beautiful frame: Pardon me if i am wrong but since i am not German these terms dont come naturally to me.

I was of the opinion that the term Vorstopper meant "advanced stopper" such as the like of Ramelow in 2002, Matthaus in 1990 and Schwarzenbeck in the 70's. A more recent example would be Theo Zagorakis of Greece.

A player equally efficient in destroying play and also efficient in coming up with the ball.

In any case German terms aside i fail to agree with you on the fact that Frings can provide adequately as a DM. He is just not a central defensive midfielder. He cannot do a job there for the entire length of the tournament. Just see his performances against Italy and even Mexico on the Confed Cup. He cant cope with that position. The right wingback role suits him better. And he doesnt even play the DM at Werder.

Also look at the France game. Frings needs all the help he can get and that often curbs Ballacks game as he has to come deep to defend as well and is not free to roam forward and put his attacking attributes to use.


And contrary to what you say...its the defensive midfield i am most worried about. We should make sure that as little balls as possible get to our center
halves.

id say this is the biggest worry for me.

[poorvi]

I agree with balla_basti.

There is a need of a holder.

I am of the opinion that Dieter Hamann is best suited for this role. This is the second time in as many finals, that his entry has resulted in blocking of opposition breakthroughs, and release of Gerrard to attack freely.

Gerrad, and Ballack, both are similar players, in the sense, both use their large physique to win the ball, both got a hard and accurate shot, and both like to press forward in attack. If Hamann is bought on, Ballack can go ahead freely, just as Gerrard went ahead freely today. He has the right age and big game expereince for the world cup.

[scorpio81]

i agree that germany needs a proper defensive mid to be at its strongest at the world cup and but i dont agree that hamann is the man for the job...

he was clueless vs holland (and, imo thats where germany started going backwards under klinsi again - when he brought back the veterans and rested the starlets) and he didnt really do much today... i dont think he freed gerrard up much as i saw him get into the box only as long as xabi alonso was on the field...
he did get onto RM though (despite KK being brought on to play there) and maybe his lack of mobility was down to the injury to his left ankle later in the game, but my point is that hamann did nothing today to convince me that he should be taken to the world cup...

kehl or frings it should be if playing a 442... if frings, then ballack should not play too advanced but frings can play a role similar to xabi when he partners stevieg at anfield and ballack should do his bit in terms of tracking back (which hes quite capable of, as he showed at the last world cup)...

the 352 is my preferred formation, but can leave that for the other thread and i think its already been covered!

[(+¹º)]

Originally Posted by The Beautiful Frame

As to your point, I disagree. I'm not worried about our midfield. Frings can play the position well enough, as can Kehl. You can also use Ballack there, he's a natural DM anyway.

Ballack a natural DM? Err well yeah he started off as one early in his carerr but after he moved to Leverkusen he became a free roaming midfielder with Ramelow behind him and Basturk in front.

As for Frings playing well in DM... you're more optimistic than me especially seeing as the two CBs have little experience.