I just happened to login to check who was doing tonight's "Challenge Cup" matches in Charleston. I figure that, when you look at these high-profile preseason MLS matches, you can get a good idea of which refs might be promoted do MLS duty in the coming year. So, I was VERY surprised to see the following: Petrescu, Navarro and DePiero are all FIFA Canadian referees. And DeLuca is a FIFA Canadian AR. (Ellis, Salyers, Bazakos and Hurd are all USSF Nationals, with Bazakos, I believe, having been given a brief shot at MLS a few years ago). Anyway, it's very odd to see international referees listed in the assignment sheet. Usually, when officials from other countries are brought in, it just says "FIFA Assignment". So I logged in and checked to see if they are in the database. Sure enough, all 4 officials are now listed in the USSF database, with their Canadian addresses and phone numbers. They have the acronym "CAN" as their "state association" tag--it usually means Cal-North, but I'm assuming it means Canada in this situation. So, why are these guys down in South Carolina doing these games? And why is Herb Silva, one of our top assessors, being flown in to have a look? I can only imagine that, with Toronto set to join the league next year, some sort of agreement has been made about using Canadian referees in MLS. As it stands now, Canadian refs work USL, but ONLY when the games are in Canada. I think that would be a problem in MLS, with having Canadian referees only work Toronto's home matches. So will Navarro, Petrescu, DePiero and others (Liu?..and where are the ARs Fearn and Vergara?) be working MLS this year? Is it a trial run for their addition in 2007? Or is it just some weird quirk? Anyone have the actual facts?
I know most of the decisions have already been made so it's a matter of finding someone that talked to the right person.
No inside scoop from me, but just a note about Elias Bazakos. Yes, he did have some MLS experience a few years back. It is good to see him back in the mix. He is one of the best referees I've ever worked with.
Not to be like the Europeans who say our refs aren't good enough to go over, but what do the top Canadians do besides the occasional USL home games?
That's infinitely worse than the European argument. Because what do the top Americans do before they do MLS games? ... USL If USL is good enough prep for our referees, why isn't it good enough for the Canadians? ESPECIALLY, when Montreal and Vancouver matches are some of the toughest in the entire league. By the way, multiple sources seem to confirm that Canadians will work MLS this year in preparation for Toronto's addition to MLS in 2007. That will pave the way for USSF officials to work some of Toronto's home matches. The only thing that seems confusing to me is how the assessment process will work. But perhaps USSF will just include a couple of Canada's top assessors into the MLS pool.
Could this lead to some sort of federated programme at the top level? Maybe National Referee status would ultimately be recognised in both countries.
No way. Trying to have a cohesive "national" program in a country the size of the United States is tough enough. Add in Canada? I don't think so. I do believe, though, that you will see Canadian FIFAs invited to our National Camp in the future (if they haven't already been, this year) so that all referees selected for MLS duty are in one place at one time at least twice (all-start break being the other time) a year. But Canada will undoubtedly retain the ability to nominate and confirm their own "National" (Class 1?) referees.
That's what i meant; each country would be able to appoint their own referees, but the status would be more readily recognised in both countries. ass opposed to, say, a "National" Ref from Slovenia, who might need to do slightly more (like give proof of permanent residency, be further assessed by USSF Assessors, etc).
The ranking in Canada is up to Class 1 is provincial, and then National, FIFA (both have a "nominated" status as well - my understanding is that you either get elevated to National or dropped. So I don't think you could compare this status to the USSF Class 4). In Canada, the university circuit isn't handled separately, so you have varsity games, and the USL as the best source of high level games in the country until MLS comes along. International assignments are relatively sparse as always. More importantly, to keep your FIFA status, you need to be officiating at the top level your country has. Therefore, if Canada now has MLS, all the FIFA guys will need MLS games (or most likely, FIFA will need to adjust their requirements to deal with the fact that this isn't a league, just a single team). As far as assessors go, give they are currently used in CONCACAF, I don't see any real problems in including them as part of the MLS except for philosophical issues they might have with the MLS/USSF mandated reffing compared to international. Most importantly, the assigned games look like they are using Canada's FIFA list officials and not dipping down into the National ranks, so the quality will be high. Although National ranks in Canada are very small - according to the only document I could find, we have 25 Nationals (excluding FIFA) and 14 nominated - men and women. And a few are coming up on the retirement age. More generally, Vergara is one of the top international ARs in CONCACAF and stands a good shot at ending up in Germany,
They have the exact same feeder system as USSF does: USL. And the USL matches in Canada, on the whole, are tougher, or at least more intense (insofar as crowds) than those in the US (with Rochester, Charleston, Portland and Seattle probably being on par). You asked what Canadian referees have done and yourself admitted that there was a comparison to be made to the European snobbery of "American referees can't possibly be good, because American referees referee second-rate soccer". Well, at least that argument has some merit (though I reject the conclusion), because our soccer isn't as world-class or competitive as the UCL or top Euro domestic leagues. Any argument that Canadian referees can't be as well prepped as American referees--based on level of play--is bogus. They referee, at the highest levels, in the exact same leagues as the USSF referees who are just short of MLS. And, at the amateur levels, I'm purely speculating, but I'd be willing to wager that the adult leagues in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver are just as competitive as anything we have in Chicago, San Francisco and New York.
One Canadian referee attended the USSF national referee camp this year. I do not know what rank/class/grade he holds. I was happy to see he did pretty well on the fitness testing. Also attending was the director of referee development (I'm paraphrasing the title) in Canada. I don't remember exact names but will try to dig them up at home. Last year, I am pretty sure nobody from Canada attended. Years prior to that, I don't know.
It would make sense to me that the refereees who will be appointed to MLS matches will be invited to a special "MLS clinic" that would probably become the recert for the Nationals that work MLS, instead of the current National Clinics. Then that could include the top Canadian and American Referee's and that will qualify them as Nationals in their respective countries. At least that would make some sense to me, maybe not to the people who organize these things though.
Something a national posted on a board or some other site (maybe it was our resident posting here, not sure). National camp as is will not happen again. Instead, your entry guys go to an enhanced regional pro clinic and the MLS and other pros go to a league camp.
That's news to me. Is this from a reliable source? Official/unofficial? I was glad they shifted back to a single camp this year, instead of 2 separate camps as in the past couple years. If they DO make that sort of change, it will be disappointing. How could a national referee feel he is getting a fair shot at moving up when he is treated so much differently than other fellow national referees?
Remembered the source, but it was based on the 2003 camp. http://www.cnra.net/newsletter/newsletter_fifth.htm
What does the addition of Canadian FIFA's mean to the MLS referee pool? Does it improve it? Does it make it worse? Or is it a non-issue? Also what does it mean to the American National refs (Toledo, Marrufo, Jones, Geiger, Simmons et. al) who have worked MLS in the past and will need to keep getting big assignments in order to keep improving and ultimately join the FIFA pool?
Canadian Referees were at National Camp this year along with a high administrator. They will be working the MLS in Toronto and my guess from what I saw is that some USSF officials will go there as well.
It's not true. Camp is still planned as it was this year. As for your other comment, that sort of change already happened and Nationals have been feeling this way for the past 3 years anyway. All work just as hard but half are treated as second class officials.
Well, if Fearn and Vergara are added, it improves it at the AR level. Navarro is the only CR I've seen regularly and I think that many here don't have the highest opinion of him from WCQ matches, so he'll be tested. I think the biggest thing is the adjustment to MLS--it's not the international game: look at well Hall's done internationally, while his work hasn't exactly been appreciate in MLS. I've never seen Petrescu, but he started his MLS career in Charleston with 8 yellows in 2 reds, for what it's worth. And to answer your final question, I am certain that it will be an issue at some points, at least on the MLS boards of Bigsoccer. I don't think it will mean anything, in the long-term. Maybe in the short-term (this year) it will stunt the development of people who are just short of MLS, because there are more referees and no expansion. But there have been and will be a lot of retirements: the guys you mention will have plenty of games in the coming years--definitely more than they've had in the past. As the league grows, we need all the top-class referees we can get. If the Canadian FIFAs are up to par (and there's no reason to believe they won't be), then their addition is only a good thing. If USSF National Referees in MLS are deserving of FIFA nomination, they'll rise to the top regardless of the Canadians' inclusion. My understanding is that they will be working MLS matches in the US, as well. It doesn't make any sense to have 2 or 3 FIFA referees being limited to doing the games of 1 teams. Not only does it not make any sense, but it would unfortunately lend to conspiracy theories.
I think this is interesting but I'm pretty sure that Welsh referees stick to the League of Wales with FA referees handling Coca-Cola League games in Wales so USSF referees retaining exclusive control of MLS games in Toronto is not without precedent. I think allowing the top CSA referees access is fine so long as they win a spot on the merits. If it turns out CSA refs aren't up to par on a given year and get shut of, so be it. At the same time, I wouldn't have a problem with CSA referees consistently taking charge of 4 or more games a week because they earn it. Considering Navarro seems to be their top guy, I'm a little skeptical though.
You are correct. I was trying not to get myself going on and on about it. Yes, I know the 'class structure' is not a new development in the past year. And my impression is, it is even more than half in the 'other' group.
Agreed. If you are a national you have to train and test with all other nationals. This is particularly important for those looking to advance from from national 2 to 1.
I know I'm wading into dangerous territory because there are nationals posting in and/or reading this thread, but--without at all commenting on any Bigsoccer member's particular abilities--isn't this a good thing? And at least accepted worldwide? Here's what I mean: We have an upgrade system in place, whereas, if you meet certain standards and put in enough time, you can attend National Camp and make Grade 4. But who's to say that those standards do--or should--correlate with what the standards should be for MLS and, maybe even, USL1 officials? The system we have in place now gives us about 230 referees who make National status annually. It's preposterous to think that we have 230 referees in this country that are capable of refereeing MLS right now. And it's naive to think that there isn't GREAT discrepancy in ability among those referees. Hell, it's naive to think that there isn't significant discrepancy in the abilities of the 25 or so MLS CRs. So taking aside the 75 or so (I'm making up a number, but I think that's about the number of total officials who see MLS duty in one form or another in a given season) referees who are an MLS watch list and giving them separate, more intense training, seems like a no-brainer to me. Look at Englishref's thread about promotion in his country: IF you make it out of your country, which is by no means a guarantee, you are then interviewed and high scrutinized personally before you move on...and there are actually very small quotas at the very top. It seems that all top leagues around the world have "special" groups for referees who work their first divisions that are above the level of what might constitute the equivalent of a "national corps", even if there is no technical distinction in grade. In England, it's the SG. Within UEFA, it's the Elite Group. I'm not sure what the names are in Italy, Spain and Germany, but I know they exist. My point is that, it's consistent with what's done worldwide to isolate a certain segment of our nationals: "the best of the best", if you will. And give them the most intense training, scrutiny, testing and assessing that USSF can offer. Now, if you have a problem with WHO amongst the National refs is selected for MLS duty, then that's an entirely different issue altogether that I don't think should be aired publicly. But, I think it's strange to consider yourself--or others--to be treated as "second class officials" just because you're one of the top 230 rated referees in the US and not in the top 75. You've still reached a grade that 99.9% of USSF referees never see and you get training and assignments of which most others in the federation can only dream.
Well, frankly I 've seen a lot of MLS referees and not that much of Navarro but given the piss poor officiating I've seen in so many MLS matches, how can he not elevate the standard?