[Excape Goat]

1958: Pele was injuried and missed the first two games. What if Feola decided to keep the same lineup, Pele was not used regularly. Note: no sub was allowed in 1958. Pele could have missed the entire Finals. Feola in real life did alternate the starting attackers, but Pele was the fixture.

1962 & 1966: We knew Pele missed most of the tournament.

1970: Four months before the WC Finals, Saldanha contemplated dropping Pele. Of course, the Brazilian FA would never allow that in real life situation. but what if Saldanha had his way and Pele was dropped.

Pele could have missed all the WC Finals. What would happen to his career? Where would Pele be in the history of the game? Would he end up in Europe if he never shined in 1958?

My two cents
If he remained in Santos, people outside of Brazil probably would never heard of him. Unliked Di Stefano, Pele would not get the European club trophies to back up his claims. I do believe the history of football is eurocentric. Pele would have a hard time cracking the top 10. Garrincha would get more credit with Brazil's unbeaten run with Pele-Garrincha combination.

However, if Pele missed the 1958 WC Finals, he would never became the national hero in 1958 and Brazil would unlikely to declare him an official national treasure in 1961, He probably would be allowed to play in Europe. It is possible that he might join a Brazilian club. Well, I am still debating whether Pele's domestic successes would have kept him in Brazil.

[tpmazembe]

EG, you love coming up with these "what-if" threads. While some ponder the universe and its mysteries, you come up with this and stuff like WC winners vs CL winners on the same year

I wondered if you have too much time on your hands, then realized that I also tend to give a response.....so don't know what it says about me.

Enough with the preamble, here we go with some thoughts:

Originally Posted by Excape Goat

If he remained in Santos, people outside of Brazil probably would never heard of him. Unliked Di Stefano, Pele would not get the European club trophies to back up his claims. I do believe the history of football is eurocentric. Pele would have a hard time cracking the top 10. Garrincha would get more credit with Brazil's unbeaten run with Pele-Garrincha combination.

I agree, the history of football worldwide is Eurocentric. A massive club career under the circumstances you present would indeed have been marginalized worldwide. I don’t believe it would be the case in S.America…...you'd find it hard to convince any informed SA pundit for example that the Argentine Moreno wasn't a top 10 player all-time.

His memory would definitely have suffered outside of Brasil, but during his playing days Europeans would certainly have heard of Pele. His success at the Brasilian and S.American club level would have made Santos sought after for European matchups. From the mid-50s on Brasilian clubs (the bigger and more successful ones) regularly played European squads in tournaments and matchups around the world.

For example: Before any of their players were WC winners, Botafogo in 1955 and 1956 played 40 games against European teams in Europe. In fact in 1956 they spent an absurd 3 consecutive months in Europe (from end of March to end of June) playing 22 games in all against the likes of Fulham United, Racing Paris, Honved and Barcelona [see, contrary to popular belief, European scouts had already seen Garrincha by the time they were supposedly “surprised” in Sweden in 1958].

It’s from these games that the majority of the few players who did leave Brazil were often scouted. In fact during that 1955 tour Botafogo sold two players (Vinicius to Napoli, and Dino to Juventus). Other teams did as well, such as the sale of Evaristo de Macedo from Flamengo to Barcelona.

[In the same way DiStefano was purchased after impressing the Spaniards on a Millionarios (Colombia) tour in Spain. What if those tours never happen?]

Additionally there did exist European scouting of talent which followed local championships and the Selecao in S.America competition, and got players from teams with limited international projection, eg. Canario - America RJ to Real Madrid. Like Evaristo, Canario never played a WC for the Selecao.

Take the center forward Mazzola of Palmeiras. His 1958 WC was the direct opposite of Pele’s; Mazzola played the first two games of WC 1958, then lost his starting spot and rode the bench the rest of the tournament. Yet, he was the one who moved to an Italian club after that WC. Its not as if AC Milan settled for Mazzola because they couldn’t pry away Didi, Vava, Garrincha or Pele; Mazzola was being wooed by Italian clubs prior to making his appearance at WC 1958 due to Palmeiras’ successful tour of Italy earlier in the year and his goal scoring prowess in the Pauslitao.

[Interestingly, in the two years they went head to head in the Paulistao, Pele outscored Mazzola by a considerable margin (made even more acute by the fact that Mazzola was a CF). And, Santos won both championships. That’s indication to me that Pele would have attracted serious European interest without a WC appearance.]

Finally, Pele’s performance against Benfica in the 1962 WCC/Intercontinental alone would have made Europeans stand up and take note had they no clue as to who he was.

Originally Posted by Excape Goat

However, if Pele missed the 1958 WC Finals, he would never became the national hero in 1958 and Brazil would unlikely to declare him an official national treasure in 1961, He probably would be allowed to play in Europe. It is possible that he might join a Brazilian club. Well, I am still debating whether Pele's domestic successes would have kept him in Brazil.

Assuming that no national treasure status existed, what would have happened to an eventual European offer?

Remember that for most of his career he was Santos’ property, so the club would have ultimate say as to whether he went Europe. You have to remember that being designated a national treasure was just one part of the equation; the other was that Santos was making a bucket of money charging exorbitant fees to European competitors because of their status with Pele on the team. The money men obviously ran the numbers and figured that their long term revenue stream with him on the team outweighed even the large purchase offers from the likes of Real and Juve. Question is, without his WC appearances, would Santos’ overseas revenue stream have been significantly affected? I don’t know.

Assuming for a second that Pele could force a sale even against Santos’ wishes (a la Robinho in today’s context), would he be motivated to move to Europe? Who can tell.

Having read my share of biographies and autobiographies of Brasilian players through the years, I’ve never once read any ‘50-‘80s great clamoring to play in Europe. They made good livings, and had no inferiority complex about playing domestically. Remember, they played European teams frequently enough to judge. Moving to Europe was not the goal that it is today.

Didi however did fancy a move to Europe. He was sought after since the 1958 WC and he wanted to play there so that his daughters could be educated in Switzerland and become multilingual. When Real finally put in front an offer that Botafogo could accept ($80k USD), he jumped at the chance. A decidedly non-footballing factor.

Garrincha had no such dream, so going to Europe was not anything extraordinary for him. It is said he was more concerned about beating his weekend neighborhood rivals named Real Madrid of Pau Grande (weekend sandlot games), than for playing for Real Madrid. Either way, Botafogo had a chance to sell him at the same time they sold Didi and refused (the offer for Garrincha was $250k).

We really don't know if Pele would have been of the Didi mindset.

A final leap. Let’s say for purposes of your analysis that he ended up in Europe.

Based on my understanding of his career, his biggest suitors – the ones rich enough to pay a price to pry him away from Santos – were Real Madrid, Juventus and Internacional…with AC Milan running fourth (things haven’t changed that much when it comes to purchasing power). Thus, he would have gone to a strong team.

If he ends up at Real do they continue their EC championship run into the early part of the decade? As DiStefano and Puskas begin to show their age, a young Pele ensures a winning transition? Are there additional EC wins there? Certainly there are La Liga titles to be won.

You can play the same “what-ifs” with the Italian teams as well. Pele with Riveira at Milan. Pele with Fachetti and Sandro Mazzola at Inter. Does Inter win 4 ECs in the decade instead of 2 and 1 runner-up?

Obviously things we will never know.

In a “It’s a Wonderful Life” view of the world, what happens if Pele doesn’t play WC 1970 and the Selecao doesn’t win? Most likely Tostao, Gerson and Jairzinho are not remembered as great players outside of Europe.

[I consulted a couple of books for this post, and should reference them to credit the authors:

1. Estrela Solitaria, by Ruy Castro (the most complete Garrincha biography)
2. Didi, by Roberto Porto]

[tpmazembe]

Though not directly related to your thread title, I thought I'd list those Botafogo 56,57 European games I referred to in the post (for any history buffs). When looking at scores, the first number is Botafogo's -thus 2-1 would be a Botafogo victory.

1955 (5/15-7/16)
Real Madrid 2-2
Atl. De Madrid 3-3
Santa Cruz (spn)4-1
Tenerife 1-2
Valencia 3-3
Racing de Paris (fra) 2-4
Murcia (spn) 2-2
Reims (fra) 5-1
Racing de Leinz (fra) 3-2
Alliancen (den) 5-5
Holland NT 6-1
Grasshoppers Zurich 6-2
Comb. Torino/Juventus 4-0
Roma 3-2
Dinamo Prague 1-0
Slovan (Czech) 2-0
Spartak (Czech) 1-0
BAnik Ostrawa 1-1

1956 (4/1-6/23)
UDA (Czech) 0-1
Norkopping (swe) 2-0
Fulham 2-2
Burnley (eng) 2-1
Brentford (eng) 3-2
Honved (hun) 2-6
Espnahol 2-2
Valencia 0-1
Oviedo 1-0
Celta 3-0
Cordoba 4-3
Rott Weiss (Ger) 4-3
Racing de Paris 3-0
Le Havre 2-0
Nuremberg 3-0
Troyes (fra) 5-1
Stade de Reims 1-1
St. Etienne 2-3
Racing de Leinz 2-0
Sedan (fra) 4-0
Barcelona 2-0 [The Barcelona game ended in a general on-pitch brawl with all 22 men from each team on the pitch. The entire Botafogo team spent the night in jail for “disorderly conduct.”]

[lanman]

Originally Posted by tpmazembe

Brentford (eng) 3-2
Honved (hun) 2-6

I wonder who arranged the schedule - obviously playing Brentford ranks a long way from the perfect warm up for playing Honved.

[BennyNL redded]

What is Maradonna didnt have any hands

[dor02]

Originally Posted by tpmazembe

EG, you love coming up with these "what-if" threads.

It is better to look at these threads that at dror_khayat's obnoxious polls.

On the other hand, I like the stats that you've compiled, tpmazembe.

Originally Posted by Excape Goat

Pele could have missed all the WC Finals. What would happen to his career? Where would Pele be in the history of the game?

He definitely wouldn't be rated as the greatest player ever. Fans and journalists would remember the Santos tours and Intercontinenetal Cup matches. If Maradona still managed to have the career he had, Diego would have been king to the throne. Pele, on the other hand, would be classified in the Di Stefano and Best type of players.

Originally Posted by Excape Goat

Would he end up in Europe if he never shined in 1958?

I don't think so. He seemed so loyal to Santos.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Originally Posted by BennyNL

What is Maradonna didnt have any hands

Don't worry princess, that card will soon be upgraded to a red.

[dor02]

Originally Posted by BennyNL

What is Maradonna didnt have any hands

He would have been a greater phenomenon. If you have seen Maradona's second goal against the English in 1986, which I doubt you have, they way he would skipped past opponents would have looked freakier than freaky.

[tpmazembe]

Originally Posted by dor02

It is better to look at these threads that at dror_khayat's obnoxious polls.

dor02, I hope my preamble to EG wasn't taken seriously; it was actually a compliment in a round-about way. Want to make that clear to everyone.

I enjoy responding to them because it takes a bit of critical thinking.

Yeah those polls you mention are too much; mostly because they are poorly thought out. Yet, they have an audience.

Originally Posted by lanman

I wonder who arranged the schedule - obviously playing Brentford ranks a long way from the perfect warm up for playing Honved.

Interesting question lanman, don't know. Do you have any sources to determine Brentford's status in English football at the time as a check versus Honveds (the base of the Hungary NT)? Its always trickly looking in the past and just going by team names.

Stade de Reims wouldn't jump out to most people today for example.

Did you know that Honved's last tour before dismantling occured in Brasil?

[lanman]

Originally Posted by tpmazembe

Interesting question lanman, don't know. Do you have any sources to determine Brentford's status in English football at the time as a check versus Honveds (the base of the Hungary NT)? Its always trickly looking in the past and just going by team names.

Stade de Reims wouldn't jump out to most people today for example.?

Brentford were in Division 3 South in 55/56. They finished 6th, which would translate to 11th or 12th in League 1 under the current system - they would be pretty much the same level as they are now. Of the other English teams they played, Burnley came 7th in Division 1 and Fulham 9th in Division 2.

Did you know that Honved's last tour before dismantling occured in Brasil?

I did, but not the specifiec details. The break up of Honved leaves us with another great "What If?" - How would the 1958 World Cup have looked were it not for the defection of Puskas, Kocsis and Czibor? And again if the Munich Air Disaster had not taken place - England lost three world class players and certain starters.