[okocha1]

I've heard many good things about this player. Can Borussia Dortmund or Germany fans tell me more about him. What type of winger is he (ie. does he beat you with pace, trickery, or a combination of both? Is he direct or flashy?) Does he have the potential to be included in the German NT for the World Cup? How is he performing this year?

Thanks

[The Double]

He's faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast.

[wolfsburgh]

He's an unconscionable diver. A stiff breeze will knock him over, followed by the requisite writhing on the ground.

I haven't seen him that much, but what I have seen of him suggests that, while fast, he doesn't possess any outstanding skill, quality, or other meaningful trait. Perhaps a useful player, but not much more.

[footyfan1]

Originally Posted by wolfsburgh

He's an unconscionable diver. A stiff breeze will knock him over, followed by the requisite writhing on the ground.

I haven't seen him that much, but what I have seen of him suggests that, while fast, he doesn't possess any outstanding skill, quality, or other meaningful trait. Perhaps a useful player, but not much more.

You obviously haven't seen him recently. His skill and qualities are coming along. Six months ago, I would have agreed with everything you said besides the "unconscionable diver" part (Look at D'Alessandro's tapes for that! ), but while Odonkor has a LONG WAY to go, he is indeed getting better. Very visably better......

[footyfan1]

Originally Posted by okocha1

I've heard many good things about this player. Can Borussia Dortmund or Germany fans tell me more about him. What type of winger is he (ie. does he beat you with pace, trickery, or a combination of both? Is he direct or flashy?) Does he have the potential to be included in the German NT for the World Cup? How is he performing this year?

Thanks

Odonkor has shown major improvement in the first half of this season. He's still beating opponents with his pace, but he's learning a bit of trickery. So far, after Weidenfeller, Smolarek and Kehl, I think Odonkor has been Dortmund's most valuable player.

Does he have the potential to be included in the German National Team? Yes.

Will he be included? No.

Not unless there are a rash of injuries at his position. The guys ahead of Odonkor on the German National Team all deserve to be ahead of Odonkor. Odonkor has lots of improving to do before he can truly be considered for the national team, but the good thing for us Dortmund fans is that he's doing that improving right before our eyes this season.

Klinsmann has been giving players on the outside a shot, but Odonkor has really shown his improvement too late to figure in this World Cup. I think Klinsmann already has his "base" of 30-35 guys he's going to build his squad from and Odonkor is on the outside looking in.

However, if he keeps improving, an appearance at Euro 2008 wouldn't be out of the question.........

[wolfsburgh]

Originally Posted by footyfan1

You obviously haven't seen him recently. His skill and qualities are coming along. Six months ago, I would have agreed with everything you said besides the "unconscionable diver" part (Look at D'Alessandro's tapes for that! ), but while Odonkor has a LONG WAY to go, he is indeed getting better. Very visably better......

I still have memories of that dive he took against St. Pauli in 2002 which "earned" Dortmund a penalty and an ill-deserved point. He's jumping up and down like he won the freaking lottery, Sammer is giving him big hugs, and the replays clearly showed that he wasn't touched. Cheaters, cheaters, cheaters. From that moment, Odonkor's reputation was cast, in my eyes. More recently, he took two dives the last time Dortmund was on FSC (neither in the box, but in both instances he clearly dove, raising my blood pressure). And last year, in another FSC game, he dove several times. My opinion, which I concede is limited, is that he is a guy who, if he doesn't/can't blow past you, will then make the conscious decision to blow over.

P.S. And as for D'Alessandro, surely you remember the exchange I had on the dear departed Wolfsburg board with an Argentine fan who got all huffy because I had the gumption to remark that Argentine players occasionally were worthy of Olympic diving medals, so I'm not blind to D's penchant for flopping. The one thing that I'll say for D is that he takes a beating and is frequently a cleats-up target when on the ball. Odonkor doesn't get that kind of attention.

[footyfan1]

Originally Posted by wolfsburgh

I still have memories of that dive he took against St. Pauli in 2002 which "earned" Dortmund a penalty and an ill-deserved point. He's jumping up and down like he won the freaking lottery, Sammer is giving him big hugs, and the replays clearly showed that he wasn't touched. Cheaters, cheaters, cheaters. From that moment, Odonkor's reputation was cast, in my eyes. More recently, he took two dives the last time Dortmund was on FSC (neither in the box, but in both instances he clearly dove, raising my blood pressure). And last year, in another FSC game, he dove several times. My opinion, which I concede is limited, is that he is a guy who, if he doesn't/can't blow past you, will then make the conscious decision to blow over.

So, in other words, your opinion is biased and uninformed.

Odonkor has changed his game plenty. He's actually learning the game.

Take a look before spitting a biased and uninformed opinion to someone who is actually trying to learn something about a player. You might be surprised at what you see.

If you want to see it.

Originally Posted by wolfsburgh

P.S. And as for D'Alessandro, surely you remember the exchange I had on the dear departed Wolfsburg board with an Argentine fan who got all huffy because I had the gumption to remark that Argentine players occasionally were worthy of Olympic diving medals, so I'm not blind to D's penchant for flopping. The one thing that I'll say for D is that he takes a beating and is frequently a cleats-up target when on the ball. Odonkor doesn't get that kind of attention.

Again, I guess you haven't been watching BVB lately. Odonkor is the catalyst of the offense these days and yes, he has been drawing that kind of attention more and more.

Again, look before you spit such an opinion when it's clearly an uninformed one.......

[wolfsburgh]

Originally Posted by footyfan1

So, in other words, your opinion is biased and uninformed.

Odonkor has changed his game plenty. He's actually learning the game.

Take a look before spitting a biased and uninformed opinion to someone who is actually trying to learn something about a player. You might be surprised at what you see.

If you want to see it.






Again, I guess you haven't been watching BVB lately. Odonkor is the catalyst of the offense these days and yes, he has been drawing that kind of attention more and more.

Again, look before you spit such an opinion when it's clearly an uninformed one.......

1. All opinion is biased, so yes, my opinion is biased. As for uninformed, I admitted that my exposure to Odonkor was limited, but what I saw affirmed my opinion. And what are you complaining about? If it wasn't for biased an ill-formed opinions, there would be no Big Soccer.

2. I haven't been watching Dortmund regularly. My viewing is limited to what FSC gives me, which means I've seen them 2, maybe 3 times this season. But I have seen them, and Odonkor has found it difficult to stay on his feet in those games.

3. Odonkor is the "catalyst" for the offense? Well, that might explain why Dortmund is mid-table and behind a team like Gladbach, which lacks entirely anything resembling a catalyst for its offense. But that's really not my point. Odonkor is, BASED UPON MY LIMITED VIEWING, a wing-type player. Dortmund distributes the ball wide to him, and he goes at a defender. In so doing, he may, indeed, be a "catalyst" for the offense (although, BASED UPON MY LIMITED VIEWING, I have been more impressed with Smolarek). But he is not, BASED UPON MY LIMITED VIEWING, the focal point of the team's attack, he is not the team's playmaker, he is not a guy who is on the ball a lot (that would be, BASED UPON MY LIMITED VIEWING, Rosicky when healthy); contrast that to D'Alessandro, who is the focal point of the attack, he is the team's playmaker, he is on the ball a lot.

4. As for Odonkor learning the game, good for him. Perhaps I am being a bit harsh on him. It could not have been easy "coming of age" with Sammer and crew, a group that I thought then were some of the biggest cheaters I had ever seen. I still chuckle (if that's the right word) at the sight of 6 foot, 3 zillion inch Jan Koller crumpling (in slow motion, it seemed) at the slightest provocation from the slightest of players. Ewerthon (sp?); Amoroso. That was the environment this guy was brought up in. But I still can't get the St. Pauli thing out of my head, as Odonkor is celebrating, with unmitigated glee, a PK he cheated to get.

[footyfan1]

Originally Posted by wolfsburgh

1. All opinion is biased, so yes, my opinion is biased. As for uninformed, I admitted that my exposure to Odonkor was limited, but what I saw affirmed my opinion. And what are you complaining about? If it wasn't for biased an ill-formed opinions, there would be no Big Soccer.

2. I haven't been watching Dortmund regularly. My viewing is limited to what FSC gives me, which means I've seen them 2, maybe 3 times this season. But I have seen them, and Odonkor has found it difficult to stay on his feet in those games.

3. Odonkor is the "catalyst" for the offense? Well, that might explain why Dortmund is mid-table and behind a team like Gladbach, which lacks entirely anything resembling a catalyst for its offense. But that's really not my point. Odonkor is, BASED UPON MY LIMITED VIEWING, a wing-type player. Dortmund distributes the ball wide to him, and he goes at a defender. In so doing, he may, indeed, be a "catalyst" for the offense (although, BASED UPON MY LIMITED VIEWING, I have been more impressed with Smolarek). But he is not, BASED UPON MY LIMITED VIEWING, the focal point of the team's attack, he is not the team's playmaker, he is not a guy who is on the ball a lot (that would be, BASED UPON MY LIMITED VIEWING, Rosicky when healthy); contrast that to D'Alessandro, who is the focal point of the attack, he is the team's playmaker, he is on the ball a lot.

4. As for Odonkor learning the game, good for him. Perhaps I am being a bit harsh on him. It could not have been easy "coming of age" with Sammer and crew, a group that I thought then were some of the biggest cheaters I had ever seen. I still chuckle (if that's the right word) at the sight of 6 foot, 3 zillion inch Jan Koller crumpling (in slow motion, it seemed) at the slightest provocation from the slightest of players. Ewerthon (sp?); Amoroso. That was the environment this guy was brought up in. But I still can't get the St. Pauli thing out of my head, as Odonkor is celebrating, with unmitigated glee, a PK he cheated to get.

Responses as numbered above.....

1. I only have a problem with "ill-formed" opinions when they are put to someone asking a question who might take your "ill-formed"/uninformed opinion as fact when it's pretty far from the truth. I know America has gotten used to misinformation in the recent past, but when someone is putting out BS about one of the players at my favorite club, I'll call you on it.


2. You sure Odonkor had trouble staying on his feet for the reasons you are projecting or because that's just how you want to see it? From what I've seen of the kid, he's not doing nearly as much of that bulls#it as he did in the past.

As you can see, I'm not going to sit here and try to tell you it didn't happen. It did. I suspect Odonkor was emulating Ewerthon, who was the "divingest son-of-a-bi#ch" we ever had in Dortmund.


3. You talk about a team like Dortmund being mid-table like it's some kind of bad thing. And excuse me, isn't your team currently four places behind us despite the fact we've lost three straight and had most of our lineup out for most of the past six weeks??

If you take a look at the injury problems Dortmund have faced this half of the season (No BL team has missed more starters for more of the season than BVB), it's a f#cking miracle we are as high as we are. We've broken the record for youngest BL team of all-time TWICE this season thanks to freakin' injuries, so I'll f#cking gladly take mid-table. For the most part, this team has overachieved, not underachieved. Not like some teams I know.

But why don't we see where they are at the end??

Speaking of catalysts and playmakers, there's not just one way to play a game and no law that says everything has to go through the #10. None that I'm aware of anyhow.

Odonkor has been sparking the BVB attack from the wing. More so than Rosicky in the middle, but both have five assists this season. Rosicky has two or three from corners and all of Odonkor's have come from the field of play.

BTW, that's one more than your "playmaker", so I don't think either one of them are doing too badly.


4. You are being pretty f#cking harsh on Odonkor. And I don't defend any of the others you named. They are guilty as charged. But during that time, Odonkor was fighting for his young career. You have no idea how much good, young talent Sammer ruined and shoved out the door at BVB. Before Sammer was fired, it was known that he was trying to get rid of Odonkor. Bert van Marwijk has given Odonkor a new lease on life and is actually teaching Odonkor how to play the game.

Bottom line? If you've got personal issues with the player, that's fine. However, you also need to remember if you have the right to spew an "ill-informed" or "uninformed" opinion, others also have the right to call you on it.

[wolfsburgh]

Originally Posted by footyfan1

Responses as numbered above.....

1. I only have a problem with "ill-formed" opinions when they are put to someone asking a question who might take your "ill-formed"/uninformed opinion as fact when it's pretty far from the truth. I know America has gotten used to misinformation in the recent past, but when someone is putting out BS about one of the players at my favorite club, I'll call you on it.


2. You sure Odonkor had trouble staying on his feet for the reasons you are projecting or because that's just how you want to see it? From what I've seen of the kid, he's not doing nearly as much of that bulls#it as he did in the past.

As you can see, I'm not going to sit here and try to tell you it didn't happen. It did. I suspect Odonkor was emulating Ewerthon, who was the "divingest son-of-a-bi#ch" we ever had in Dortmund.


3. You talk about a team like Dortmund being mid-table like it's some kind of bad thing. And excuse me, isn't your team currently four places behind us despite the fact we've lost three straight and had most of our lineup out for most of the past six weeks??

If you take a look at the injury problems Dortmund have faced this half of the season (No BL team has missed more starters for more of the season than BVB), it's a f#cking miracle we are as high as we are. We've broken the record for youngest BL team of all-time TWICE this season thanks to freakin' injuries, so I'll f#cking gladly take mid-table. For the most part, this team has overachieved, not underachieved. Not like some teams I know.

But why don't we see where they are at the end??

Speaking of catalysts and playmakers, there's not just one way to play a game and no law that says everything has to go through the #10. None that I'm aware of anyhow.

Odonkor has been sparking the BVB attack from the wing. More so than Rosicky in the middle, but both have five assists this season. Rosicky has two or three from corners and all of Odonkor's have come from the field of play.

BTW, that's one more than your "playmaker", so I don't think either one of them are doing too badly.


4. You are being pretty f#cking harsh on Odonkor. And I don't defend any of the others you named. They are guilty as charged. But during that time, Odonkor was fighting for his young career. You have no idea how much good, young talent Sammer ruined and shoved out the door at BVB. Before Sammer was fired, it was known that he was trying to get rid of Odonkor. Bert van Marwijk has given Odonkor a new lease on life and is actually teaching Odonkor how to play the game.

Bottom line? If you've got personal issues with the player, that's fine. However, you also need to remember if you have the right to spew an "ill-informed" or "uninformed" opinion, others also have the right to call you on it.

1. As you should.

2. We're pretty much saying the same thing. The only difference of opinion is that I think he still goes down too easily.

3. A lot of people in a lot of different positions can be catalysts. My half-hearted defense of D'Alessandro centered solely on the fact that, because of his role, he has a lot more touches and is more frequently a target of defenders out to make a point. I'm sure someone can point us to statistics regarding number of touches, etc. As for Wolfsburg versus Dortmund, please review my posts. At no point did I attempt to engage in a comparison of the relative merits of the team, and I'm not sure why you felt the need to do so. FWIW, I'm a firm believe that the proof is in the pudding. One look at the winter break tables will tell you which has been the better team. But then again, Dortmund had a legitimate, qualified, talented coach for those 17 games, while Wolfsburg had, well, . . .

4. I don't spew, but in any event, thanks for your views (which, notwithstanding our disagreement, I value highly). I'll watch his play closer next time (and perhaps with a more open mind--no promises, though ) to see if he's playing the game instead of conning the refs.