Minutes lost in the offseason

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by chapka, Feb 22, 2012.

  1. chapka

    chapka Member+

    May 18, 2004
    Haverford, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Out of curiosity, I decided to measure how many of the players each MLS team lost over the offseason were real contributors. I included just players who saw the field in the 2011 regular season, and added up each player's regular season minutes to calculate the "minutes lost." Here are the results for a few teams:


    Timbers: 6 players, 3,597 minutes

    Cooper: 2795
    Pore: 200
    Goldthwaite: 190
    Lowry: 146
    Brown: 135
    Umony: 131


    Galaxy: 8 players, 5,567 minutes

    Birchall: 1551
    Ricketts: 1284
    Lopez: 1165
    Berhalter: 748
    Hejduk: 472
    Kirovski: 244
    Robinson: 90
    Thomas: 13


    Red Bulls: 12 players, 7786 minutes

    Ream: 2520
    Mendes: 1505
    Coundoul: 1035
    Rost: 945
    Sutton: 900
    Albright: 482
    Auvray: 124
    Horwath: 90
    Kassell: 82
    Robinson: 54
    Rooney: 48
    Jones: 1


    Union: 7 players, 10,739 minutes

    Le Toux: 3060
    Mondragon: 2385
    Mapp: 1861
    Paunovic: 1236
    Nakazawa: 1208
    Miglioranzi: 980
    Langley: 10


    Seattle: 9 players, 12,711 minutes

    Keller: 3060
    Riley: 2579
    Wahl: 1989
    Friberg: 1897
    Fucito: 1045
    Neagle: 1008
    Jaqua: 843
    Noonan: 259
    Montano: 31

    Houston: 5 players, 3,947

    Freeman: 1909
    Cruz: 1152
    Costly: 576
    Garey: 164
    Robinson: 146

    Real Salt Lake: 7 players, 6666 minutes

    Russell: 1809
    Williams: 1970
    Warner: 1106
    A Alvarez: 724
    Alexandre: 703
    McKenzie: 180
    Gonzalez: 174

    Colorado: 5 players, 3776 minutes

    Nyassi: 1586
    Folan: 1521
    Comminges: 322
    Earls: 224
    Kandji: 123


    DC United: 10 players, 8058 minutes.

    Simms: 2404
    Davies: 1553
    Burch: 1117
    Quaranta: 1091
    Brettschneider: 789
    Ngwenya: 629
    Zayner: 311
    Cronin: 126
    Barklage: 38


    Sporting: 8 Players, 5766 Minutes

    Omar Bravo 2150
    Davy Arnaud 1536
    Milos Stojcev 790
    Jeferson 571
    Craig Rocastle 306
    Ryan Smith 294
    Scott Lorenz 84
    Shavar Thomas 35

    Where does your team rank?
     
    2 people repped this.
  2. troutseth

    troutseth Member+

    Feb 1, 2006
    Houston, TX
    Houston: 5 players, 3,947

    Freeman: 1909
    Cruz: 1152
    Costly: 576
    Garey: 164
    Robinson: 146

    * Only Cruz saw significant time second half of the season, followed by Costly off the bench.
     
  3. 15 to 32

    15 to 32 Straw Hog

    Jul 1, 2008
    Salt Lake
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Real Salt Lake: 7 players, 6666 minutes

    Russell: 1809
    A Alvarez: 724
    Alexandre: 703
    Gonzalez: 174
    McKenzie: 180
    Williams: 1970
    Warner: 1106


    Apparently we got rid of the devil by losing these players
    so that bodes well for us
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. edwardgr

    edwardgr Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 6, 2006
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fixed your numbers for Seattle.
     
  5. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Colorado: 5 players, 3776 minutes

    Folan: 1521
    Nyassi: 1586
    Kandji: 123
    Earls: 224
    Comminges: 322
     
  6. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    I think this is right ...

    DC United: 10 players for 8058 minutes lost.

    Brettschneider: 789
    Barklage: 38
    Davies: 1553
    Simms: 2404
    McTavish: 0
    Zayner: 311
    Ngwenya: 629
    Burch: 1117
    Quaranta: 1091
    Cronin: 126
     
  7. Formulaic

    Formulaic Member

    Jul 6, 2011
    Kansas City
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sporting: 8 Players, 5766 Minutes

    Omar Bravo 2150
    Davy Arnaud 1536
    Milos Stojcev 790
    Jeferson 571
    Craig Rocastle 306
    Ryan Smith 294
    Scott Lorenz 84
    Shavar Thomas 35
     
  8. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    I threw everything that's been added into the OP. If we get them all (right now we have 10 of the 18 returning teams), I will put them in rank order.
     
  9. Formulaic

    Formulaic Member

    Jul 6, 2011
    Kansas City
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Updated, as Cyrus was waived today
     
  10. OleGunnar20

    OleGunnar20 Member+

    Dec 7, 2009
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Code:
    TEAM  Players  Minutes
    SSFC    12     12,711     
    PHI      7     10,739
    DCU     10      8,058
    RBNY    12      7,786
    RSL      7      6,666      
    SKC      9      5,874
    LAG      8      5,567
    HOU      5      3,947
    COL      5      3,776
    PTFC     6      3,597
    
     
  11. Ryan1980

    Ryan1980 New Member

    Apr 28, 2004
    I compiled the rest of the teams:

    Team Players Minutes Lost
    SSFC 12 12,711
    CUSA 14 11,792
    CLB 8 11,408
    PHI 7 10,739
    VAN 13 8,135
    DCU 10 8,058
    RBNY 12 7,786
    NER 10 7,622
    TFC 11 6,674
    RSL 7 6,666
    SKC 9 5,874
    SJ 7 5,840
    DAL 7 5,637
    LAG 8 5,567
    HOU 5 3,947
    COL 5 3,776
    CHI 7 3,674
    PTFC 6 3,597
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Neuwerld

    Neuwerld Member+

    Oct 15, 2007
    California
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    This is what I came up with for San Jose:

    Burling - 2041
    Convey - 1766
    Leitch - 1115
    Peterson - 436
    Sealy - 419
    Attakora - 383
    Luzunaris - 63
    Griffin - 46

    Total : 6269

    Attakora might still come back, but right now he's not under contract and trialing elsewhere. Also Griffin was just on loan.

    Not counting those two players you get 5840 like the above post.
     
  13. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    Sorted by average minutes per player lost ...

    Code:
    [B][U]         Mins    Mins/Player Lost[/U]
    PHI  7   10,739  1534
    CLB  8   11,408  1426
    SEA  12  12,711  1059
    RSL  7   6,666   952
    CHV  14  11,792  842
    SJE  7   5,840   834
    DCU  10  8,058   806
    FCD  7   5,637   805
    HOU  5   3,947   789
    NER  10  7,622   762
    COL  5   3,776   755
    LAG  8   5,567   696
    SKC  9   5,874   653
    NYR  12  7,786   649
    VAN  13  8,135   626
    TFC  11  6,674   607
    POR  6   3,597   600
    CHI  7   3,674   525[/B]
    The interesting teams to me are at the bottom of the table. They're the ones that kept the core of the first team together. And some of them did that while losing a lot of players.

    Philly's interesting too. They didn't give up that many players relatively speaking, but those players sure had a lot of minutes on the field. That's a team that made some big moves and is taking some serious gambles.

    And now that I have the Columbus numbers, they look a lot like Philly by this measure. Big gambles.
     
  14. Pablo Chicago

    Pablo Chicago Member+

    Sep 7, 2005
    Sweet Home Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When you stop at minutes lost it gives the impression that some clubs have gapping holes to fill. What of the minutes gained by acquiring players who played more than a few minutes last season? Does that lessen the delta for any of these clubs?
     
  15. OleGunnar20

    OleGunnar20 Member+

    Dec 7, 2009
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    that is largely irrelevant in relation to what is being measured and discussed here. plus many, probably over half of the players added to replace the lost players and their minutes have ZERO minutes in MLS because they've never played in MLS before and not last season. so there would be no way to fairly judge how well teams have replaced the lost minutes until the season is over.

    but at least we now have a picture of just what teams have lost. did they keep their core together? did they gut their team? did they shed fringe players and dead weight? these numbers can tell us that more accurately than just speculation or opinion.

    as for how teams have replaced their lost minutes, ... well that is still in the realm of opinion and speculation for now ...
     
  16. Pablo Chicago

    Pablo Chicago Member+

    Sep 7, 2005
    Sweet Home Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I refrained from adding a comment about this being an exercise in futility since I contributed to the discussion, but since your brought it up...

    Yes, but the problem lies with the subjectivity of the value of minutes in relation to player talent. While interesting, the concept of measuring lost minutes (without taking a lot of other factors into consideration) provides nothing more than anecdotal results.

    Is it safe to assume that a club gutted their team when they lost 3 players that never would have earned the minutes played except for injuries to the club's starters? Houston may have thought they were dumping dead weight when they got rid of a forward who only scored 5 goals in 2010, but then he scored 12 goals the next season.

    We haven't left the realm of opinion and speculation by focusing entirely on minutes lost.
     
  17. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    I don't think tracking it implies 'focusing entirely' on it.

    I'm well aware that, for instance, DCU's minutes lost are mostly 'good', at least in the sense that these are players the team willingly parted with. Robbie Rogers' minutes lost are probably 'bad', in the sense that the team wanted to re-sign him and couldn't. I get that.

    But as a raw measure of turnover, it's a start (and probably better than just number of roster spots turned over).
     
  18. OleGunnar20

    OleGunnar20 Member+

    Dec 7, 2009
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    exactly. it is interesting to see that while some teams lost 10-12 players ... they didn't lose that many minutes (comparatively) ... meaning the cleared out "deadwood" ... whereas SSFC lost 12,000 minutes ... that's a lot of minutes to make up .... and they have added quality to replace those minutes but still ... that much turnover is always a risk.
     
  19. Formulaic

    Formulaic Member

    Jul 6, 2011
    Kansas City
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Similar to what gunnar said, you could also filter this list to show only players with, say, 1000+ minutes lost to show who lost "major" conributors. Minutes lost per player average (as has been shown) and median per player lost also help to get a better idea. I agree that seattle wth 12k minutes could be a potential issue with team cohesion in the early season, even with the new signings being quality players.

    And definitely the other side of the coin is how they were replaced, but as has been mentioned that would be pretty difficult considering how many new roster spots are players that have never been in mls.
     
  20. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And I think that is where Pablo's comment comes into play. Perhaps not the number of minutes added, but without a discussion about what was brought in to replace the minutes lost, the number itself isn't very useful.

    As an example, SSFC lost almost 13,000 minutes in the players they lost this offseason, this includes 5 starters and their primary late game sub from last season. If all you are looking at is the numbers you would think the Sounders are completely f***ed this season. It's only when you look at who they brought in to replace those minutes lost that you see they haven't really lost much:

    Out ----------- In ---------------- Change in Quality
    Keller-------Gspurning --------- Slight decrease
    Riley--------Johansson --------- Moderate improvement
    Wahl-------Burch ---------------- Moderate decrease
    Neagle-----Sivebaek ----------- Major improvement
    Friberg-----None ---------------- Redundant to Evans, but cuts into depth
    Fucito-------Johnson/Cato ----- EJ improvement, Cato decrease
    Jaqua-------Sodade/Ochoa ---- Salary dump, no increase or decrease
    Noonan-----Sodade/Ochoa ---- Salary dump, no increase or decrease
     
    1 person likes this.
  21. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 24, 2000
  22. Ryan1980

    Ryan1980 New Member

    Apr 28, 2004
    When I looked at San Jose's website I didn't find those two so I assumed they had 0 minutes. Thanks for the correction.
     
  23. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    Looking at minutes lost is just a good starting point for further analysis and discussion.

    I get the impression people see stats like these and think that the numbers mean something. The numbers are what they are. Then you dig deeper and that's where you can start to draw conclusions.
     
  24. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 24, 2000
    They do mean SOMETHING, but not necessarily what people think. They're a data point in a larger discussion.
     

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