something to read before you gift us with your "revolutionary idea"

__wowza · Sep 16, 2011

the league was re-visioned under garber to avoid the pitfalls that claimed the original NASL. most of them can be examined through a financial magnifying glass, and many can be overlooked because we're a young league and still in a state of flux. if you're going to bring up any of the following as both applicable and maintainable, please ask yourself these questions first:

no pro/reg system:
- how do you bring out fans to watch a second tier team?
- how do you get financial/corporate backing for a second tier team?
- with 3 teams in the major league turning a profit last year, how many teams do you expect to remain in the second tier that can remain financially viable?

not having an EPL schedule:
- how do you propose bringing fans/casuals out in the winter months?
- how do you propose competing with winter sports in relation to the recently signed television deal with NBC?
- what are your projections for attendances in the fall/winter months in relation to current summer/fall attendances? would they be better or worse?
- how much do you propose stadium upgrades would cost to winterize stadiums for fans?

abolishing the playoffs:
- what do you propose to replace the potential revenue playoffs bring to applicable teams?
- how do you attract fans when their team has been mathematically eliminated from the playoffs halfway/a third of the way through the season?
- how do you feel north americans (who are used to playoffs) would react to a sport with no post-season?

no/higher salary cap:
- how do you expect teams with lower budgets to remain competitive in the league against well-funded teams?
- how do you propose to overcome the potential ticket price increase that comes with a the larger roster salary?
- how do you overcome the gap left when lower budget teams ultimately lose fans (money at the gate) because they're unable to win due to roster/cost constraints?

a single table system:
- how do you propose rosters can overcome the fatigue of flying their team and staff as far as five hours away/back in a week for a match?
- how can teams help cover costs of potentially shipping their team/staff coast-to-coast?
- how many fans do you feel would come out to potentially support their club when the travel distances increase?

most of the ideas posted are naive at best, and ignorant (bordering on eurosnobbery) at worst. sure, many of us would love to see teams on a single table system with no playoffs and promotion/relegation looming. however, this isn't fiscally viable as evident by the NASL. every decision made (whether we like it or not) has been made to ensure that the league doesn't grow too fast, too quick. the leagues barely 15 years old and i've often seen it compared to leagues that have a 100 year head start on us. it isn't a fair comparison to make, so don't make it.

if anyone has any other questions they think would be relevant to the discussion of the leagues growth, i'd love to see them, but if you can't answer these questions when you're proposing your grand scheme to us, please don't bother posting at all. you might think you have a groundbreaking idea, but you might as well be posting under a thread titled "ways to ensure the league goes bankrupt".

yellowbismark · Sep 16, 2011

__wowza said: ↑

the league was re-visioned under garber to avoid the pitfalls that claimed the original NASL. most of them can be examined through a financial magnifying glass, and many can be overlooked because we're a young league and still in a state of flux. if you're going to bring up any of the following as both applicable and maintainable, please ask yourself these questions first:

no pro/reg system:
- how do you bring out fans to watch a second tier team?
- how do you get financial/corporate backing for a second tier team?
- with 3 teams in the major league turning a profit last year, how many teams do you expect to remain in the second tier that can remain financially viable?

not having an EPL schedule:
- how do you propose bringing fans/casuals out in the winter months?
- how do you propose competing with winter sports in relation to the recently signed television deal with NBC?
- what are your projections for attendances in the fall/winter months in relation to current summer/fall attendances? would they be better or worse?
- how much do you propose stadium upgrades would cost to winterize stadiums for fans?

abolishing the playoffs:
- what do you propose to replace the potential revenue playoffs bring to applicable teams?
- how do you attract fans when their team has been mathematically eliminated from the playoffs halfway/a third of the way through the season?
- how do you feel north americans (who are used to playoffs) would react to a sport with no post-season?

no/higher salary cap:
- how do you expect teams with lower budgets to remain competitive in the league against well-funded teams?
- how do you propose to overcome the potential ticket price increase that comes with a the larger roster salary?
- how do you overcome the gap left when lower budget teams ultimately lose fans (money at the gate) because they're unable to win due to roster/cost constraints?

a single table system:
- how do you propose rosters can overcome the fatigue of flying their team and staff as far as five hours away/back in a week for a match?
- how can teams help cover costs of potentially shipping their team/staff coast-to-coast?
- how many fans do you feel would come out to potentially support their club when the travel distances increase?

most of the ideas posted are naive at best, and ignorant (bordering on eurosnobbery) at worst. sure, many of us would love to see teams on a single table system with no playoffs and promotion/relegation looming. however, this isn't fiscally viable as evident by the NASL. every decision made (whether we like it or not) has been made to ensure that the league doesn't grow too fast, too quick. the leagues barely 15 years old and i've often seen it compared to leagues that have a 100 year head start on us. it isn't a fair comparison to make, so don't make it.

if anyone has any other questions they think would be relevant to the discussion of the leagues growth, i'd love to see them, but if you can't answer these questions when you're proposing your grand scheme to us, please don't bother posting at all. you might think you have a groundbreaking idea, but you might as well be posting under a thread titled "ways to ensure the league goes bankrupt".
Click to expand...

I heart this post.

The Devil's Architect · Sep 16, 2011

yellowbismark said: ↑

I heart this post.
Click to expand...

I printed out a copy and rubbed one out on it.

Jewelz510 · Sep 16, 2011

This is the Magna Carta of the BigSoccer kingdom.

xbhaskarx · Sep 16, 2011

This should be stickied, and anyone who starts a new thread without having read it should either be banned or severely beaten.

KCbus · Sep 16, 2011

xbhaskarx said: ↑

This should be stickied, and anyone who starts a new thread without having read it should either be banned or severely beaten.
Click to expand...

Well, you beat me to it.

So since I can't get there first, I'd like to second this motion.

RedRover · Sep 17, 2011

__wowza said: ↑

the league was re-visioned under garber to avoid the pitfalls that claimed the original NASL. most of them can be examined through a financial magnifying glass, and many can be overlooked because we're a young league and still in a state of flux. if you're going to bring up any of the following as both applicable and maintainable, please ask yourself these questions first:

no pro/reg system:
- how do you bring out fans to watch a second tier team?
- how do you get financial/corporate backing for a second tier team?
- with 3 teams in the major league turning a profit last year, how many teams do you expect to remain in the second tier that can remain financially viable?

not having an EPL schedule:
- how do you propose bringing fans/casuals out in the winter months?
- how do you propose competing with winter sports in relation to the recently signed television deal with NBC?
- what are your projections for attendances in the fall/winter months in relation to current summer/fall attendances? would they be better or worse?
- how much do you propose stadium upgrades would cost to winterize stadiums for fans?

abolishing the playoffs:
- what do you propose to replace the potential revenue playoffs bring to applicable teams?
- how do you attract fans when their team has been mathematically eliminated from the playoffs halfway/a third of the way through the season?
- how do you feel north americans (who are used to playoffs) would react to a sport with no post-season?

no/higher salary cap:
- how do you expect teams with lower budgets to remain competitive in the league against well-funded teams?
- how do you propose to overcome the potential ticket price increase that comes with a the larger roster salary?
- how do you overcome the gap left when lower budget teams ultimately lose fans (money at the gate) because they're unable to win due to roster/cost constraints?

a single table system:
- how do you propose rosters can overcome the fatigue of flying their team and staff as far as five hours away/back in a week for a match?
- how can teams help cover costs of potentially shipping their team/staff coast-to-coast?
- how many fans do you feel would come out to potentially support their club when the travel distances increase?

most of the ideas posted are naive at best, and ignorant (bordering on eurosnobbery) at worst. sure, many of us would love to see teams on a single table system with no playoffs and promotion/relegation looming. however, this isn't fiscally viable as evident by the NASL. every decision made (whether we like it or not) has been made to ensure that the league doesn't grow too fast, too quick. the leagues barely 15 years old and i've often seen it compared to leagues that have a 100 year head start on us. it isn't a fair comparison to make, so don't make it.

if anyone has any other questions they think would be relevant to the discussion of the leagues growth, i'd love to see them, but if you can't answer these questions when you're proposing your grand scheme to us, please don't bother posting at all. you might think you have a groundbreaking idea, but you might as well be posting under a thread titled "ways to ensure the league goes bankrupt".
Click to expand...

Let's drop this on Tinfoil Teddy's doorstep, then run and hide so that when he reads this his head will end up like Louis Del Grande from the movie Scanners.

T.M. Anthony · Sep 17, 2011

__wowza said: ↑

the league was re-visioned under garber to avoid the pitfalls that claimed the original NASL. most of them can be examined through a financial magnifying glass, and many can be overlooked because we're a young league and still in a state of flux. if you're going to bring up any of the following as both applicable and maintainable, please ask yourself these questions first:

no pro/reg system:
- how do you bring out fans to watch a second tier team?
- how do you get financial/corporate backing for a second tier team?
- with 3 teams in the major league turning a profit last year, how many teams do you expect to remain in the second tier that can remain financially viable?

not having an EPL schedule:
- how do you propose bringing fans/casuals out in the winter months?
- how do you propose competing with winter sports in relation to the recently signed television deal with NBC?
- what are your projections for attendances in the fall/winter months in relation to current summer/fall attendances? would they be better or worse?
- how much do you propose stadium upgrades would cost to winterize stadiums for fans?

abolishing the playoffs:
- what do you propose to replace the potential revenue playoffs bring to applicable teams?
- how do you attract fans when their team has been mathematically eliminated from the playoffs halfway/a third of the way through the season?
- how do you feel north americans (who are used to playoffs) would react to a sport with no post-season?

no/higher salary cap:
- how do you expect teams with lower budgets to remain competitive in the league against well-funded teams?
- how do you propose to overcome the potential ticket price increase that comes with a the larger roster salary?
- how do you overcome the gap left when lower budget teams ultimately lose fans (money at the gate) because they're unable to win due to roster/cost constraints?

a single table system:
- how do you propose rosters can overcome the fatigue of flying their team and staff as far as five hours away/back in a week for a match?
- how can teams help cover costs of potentially shipping their team/staff coast-to-coast?
- how many fans do you feel would come out to potentially support their club when the travel distances increase?

most of the ideas posted are naive at best, and ignorant (bordering on eurosnobbery) at worst. sure, many of us would love to see teams on a single table system with no playoffs and promotion/relegation looming. however, this isn't fiscally viable as evident by the NASL. every decision made (whether we like it or not) has been made to ensure that the league doesn't grow too fast, too quick. the leagues barely 15 years old and i've often seen it compared to leagues that have a 100 year head start on us. it isn't a fair comparison to make, so don't make it.

if anyone has any other questions they think would be relevant to the discussion of the leagues growth, i'd love to see them, but if you can't answer these questions when you're proposing your grand scheme to us, please don't bother posting at all. you might think you have a groundbreaking idea, but you might as well be posting under a thread titled "ways to ensure the league goes bankrupt".
Click to expand...

+ everybody logical on BS

CoconutMonkey · Sep 17, 2011

__wowza said: ↑

the league was re-visioned under garber to avoid the pitfalls that claimed the original NASL. most of them can be examined through a financial magnifying glass, and many can be overlooked because we're a young league and still in a state of flux. if you're going to bring up any of the following as both applicable and maintainable, please ask yourself these questions first:

no/higher salary cap:
- how do you expect teams with lower budgets to remain competitive in the league against well-funded teams?
- how do you propose to overcome the potential ticket price increase that comes with a the larger roster salary?
- how do you overcome the gap left when lower budget teams ultimately lose fans (money at the gate) because they're unable to win due to roster/cost constraints?

a single table system:
- how do you propose rosters can overcome the fatigue of flying their team and staff as far as five hours away/back in a week for a match?
- how can teams help cover costs of potentially shipping their team/staff coast-to-coast?
- how many fans do you feel would come out to potentially support their club when the travel distances increase?
Click to expand...

Paper conferences aside, doesn't the league already play a balanced schedule? Seems like the league is dealing with these issues right now.

CCSUltra · Sep 18, 2011

boredbobby said: ↑

I find this post the very reason why MLS is in deep trouble. As I'm reading this, Fox is going to show Man. U v. Chelsea on NFL SUNDAY. The same Sunday MLS has been fearful to go up against.

MLS fans should be furious to see your league being dumped on and be considered "markets" [garber's term for franchises]. MLS fans should be furious that 50% of markets open at over a year have seen attendance drop.

MLS you are losing.
Click to expand...

And yet the league continues to grow, improve, and attract investment.

By the way, I don't know if you heard, but Fox commentators were calling Manchester United and Chelsea "franchises."

RedRover · Sep 18, 2011

boredbobby said: ↑

I find this post the very reason why MLS is in deep trouble. As I'm reading this, Fox is going to show Man. U v. Chelsea on NFL SUNDAY. The same Sunday MLS has been fearful to go up against.

MLS fans should be furious to see your league being dumped on and be considered "markets" [garber's term for franchises]. MLS fans should be furious that 50% of markets open at over a year have seen attendance drop.

MLS you are losing.
Click to expand...

No. This is what YOU want to see happen, trollface. Europosing snots like you want so badly for MLS to fail and die so that you can all clap real hard for the single table, no playoffs, pro/rel, home and away schedule fairy to pop up and magically give you drug abusing losers what you so want.

But it won't happen. Because, as CCSUltra points out, MLS is continualy improving both on the field and off. Their new deal with NBC Comcast is proof of that. Deal with it or GTFOAH.

ceezmad · Sep 18, 2011

boredbobby
BigSoccer Member

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: San Diego

Club: Liverpool FC, Cruz Azul Hidalgo, Club Tijuana
Country: United States

Well Tijuana just lost to Tecos, yes Tecos!

JasonMa · Sep 18, 2011

boredbobby said: ↑

MLS attendance is stagnate at best [see "markets" open at least one year].
Click to expand...

Then explain why 2011 will almost certainly be the best year in league history for average and median attendance.

ceezmad · Sep 18, 2011

Vancouver, Portland and KC?

Attendance Change from Last Season and All Time Average:

Code:

----Team----    Current    Last    Diff    Alltime    Diff
[B]Chicago        14018    15841    -11.5%    15636    -10.3%
Chivas USA    14248    14557    -2.1% [/B]  [B] 16053    -11.2%[/B]
Colorado    14585    13014    12.1%    13907    4.9%
[B]Columbus    11405    14330    -20.4%    15465    -26.3%
DC United    15046    14271    5.4%    17343    -13.2%[/B]
FC Dallas      12896    10865    18.7%    12154    6.1%
[B]Houston       16793    16833    -0.2%    17245    -2.6%[/B]
Kansas City    17589    10199    72.5%    10909    61.2%
Los Angeles    22838    21183    7.8%    21973    3.9%
[B]New England    12739    12608    1.0%    15787    -19.3%[/B]
Philadelphia    18168    19301    -5.9%    19252    -5.6%
Portland       18627    New    0.0%    New    0.0%
Real Salt Lake    17005    16870    0.8%    16686    1.9%
Red Bull NY    18864    18455    2.2%    16971    11.2%
San Jose      12021    9659    24.5%    12902    -6.8%
Seattle        36981    36160    2.3%    33535    10.3%
Toronto FC    20178    20624    -2.2%    20263    -0.4%
Vancouver    20551    New    0.0%    New    0.0%
Overall       17456    16574    5.3%    15502    12.6%

https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24320214&postcount=3

LongDuckDong · Sep 18, 2011

This statement is factually incorrect.

Code:

 ----Team----    Current    Last    Diff   
Chicago         14018    15841    -11.5%     
Chivas USA      14248    14557    -2.1%    
Colorado        14585    13014     12.1%     
Columbus        11405    14330    -20.4%   
DC United       15046    14271     5.4%   
FC Dallas       12896    10865     18.7%   
Houston         16793    16833    -0.2%   
Kansas City     17589    10199     72.5%  
Los Angeles     22838    21183     7.8%  
New England     12739    12608     1.0%    
Philadelphia    18168    19301    -5.9%   
Portland        18627    New       0.0%     
Real Salt Lake  17005    16870     0.8%   
Red Bull NY     18864    18455     2.2%    
San Jose        12021    9659      24.5%   
Seattle         36981    36160     2.3%     
Toronto FC      20178    20624    -2.2%     
Vancouver       20551    New       0.0%   
Overall         17456    16574     5.3%

JasonMa · Sep 18, 2011

boredbobby said: ↑

expansion is skewing the numbers. look at franchises open one year or more. 50% of franchises are down. Next!
Click to expand...

10 of 16 franchises attendance are up this year. 4 franchises are up more than 10%, 2 are down more than 10%. Next!

ceezmad · Sep 18, 2011

Jasonma said: ↑

10 of 16 franchises attendance are up this year. 4 franchises are up more than 10%, 2 are down more than 10%. Next!
Click to expand...

From last year, but if you look at lifetime attendance 5 teams are hurting (more than 10%).

My FIRE is one of the teams hurting.

JasonMa · Sep 18, 2011

ceezmad said: ↑

From last year, but if you look at lifetime attendance 5 teams are hurting (more than 10%).

My FIRE is one of the teams hurting.
Click to expand...

Sure, I'm not denying that MLS went backwards for a time and some teams haven't recovered from that. The league as a whole though is moving forward.

ceezmad · Sep 18, 2011

Jasonma said: ↑

Sure, I'm not denying that MLS went backwards for a time and some teams haven't recovered from that. The league as a whole though is moving forward.
Click to expand...

Yes, and we are doing better than the J League, they have not recovered, their average is down to 15,391 so far this year.

http://www.j-league.or.jp/data/view.php?d=j1f&t=visitor&y=2011&l=E

Now China, they are doing pretty good this year. 18,394 so far this year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Chinese_Super_League#League_Attendance

So MLS is doing pretty well overall if we compare it with other similar (age wise) leagues in the world.

RedRover · Sep 18, 2011

boredbobby said: ↑

Show me the improvements?

MLS is still trying to figure out how not to screw up playoffs.

MLS is still struggling to attract tv ratings.

MLS attendance is stagnate at best [see "markets" open at least one year].

All the excuses MLS fans have been making are trash. Fox is broadcasting a delayed EPL match on NFL SUNDAY! I though America wasn't soccer ready?
Click to expand...

And yet, the quality of the league has improved over five years. Ten years. Since the league's birth. And it continues to keep getting better through time without any of the things you whinny sucky crybaby haters demand being included just so you'll pay attention.

But, judging by your post, you proven you're indeed a drug addled loser. Because you don't make any sense.

RedRover · Sep 18, 2011

boredbobby said: ↑

btw, I wear my mommy's clothes and hang around busy street corners at night in hopes of getting picked up.
Click to expand...

Fixed.

JasonMa · Sep 18, 2011

boredbobby said: ↑

All i know
Click to expand...

You have never written a more true statement.

JasonMa · Sep 18, 2011

boredbobby said: ↑

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Went right over your head, didn't it?

KCbus · Sep 18, 2011

boredbobby said: ↑

All i know is EPL was shown on Fox today on NFL Sunday. MLS was no where to be found on national coverage. I rest my case.
Click to expand...

Well whoop-de-damn-do. One-off occurrence with two of the world's biggest clubs. Let me know when Fox does that again on an NFL Sunday.

Considering MLS has nationally televised games every week on FSC, and ESPN for most of the season, and is going to be showing up on NBC next year... Shut up.

And let's just wait and see what kind of ratings it gets relative to the football numbers... I'm guessing you won't like them.

ceezmad · Sep 18, 2011

boredbobby said: ↑

You do know Japan went through a natural disaster a few months ago. Right? Tsunami + Nuclear meltdown...!
Click to expand...

that is why I wrote.

ceezmad said: ↑

Yes, and we are doing better than the J League, they have not recovered, their average is down to 15,391 so far this year.

http://www.j-league.or.jp/data/view.php?d=j1f&t=visitor&y=2011&l=E

Now China, they are doing pretty good this year. 18,394 so far this year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Chinese_Super_League#League_Attendance

So MLS is doing pretty well overall if we compare it with other similar (age wise) leagues in the world.
Click to expand...