[xfactor857]

I heard this from my professor. Can any Iranians or Chinese do some research? I couldn't find much info on English websites aside from the fact that she had a secret police.

Thanks

[the_13th_redneck]

I think there were quite a few Turkic generals throughout Chinese history but I don't know about a Persian guy.

[Espiro]

I only know about some Persian prince who flew to China but I dont know when that happened and to which part of China. I think it was when the Arabs came to Iran but I am not really sure. Well...... maybe it was a princess?? I am not really sure. Someone can help me out?

[Step-Over]

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

I think there were quite a few Turkic generals throughout Chinese history but I don't know about a Persian guy.

Your professor is absolutely correct. Let me explain: The Ottoman Empire, which lasted from the fourteenth century up to the sixteenth century (though, some may argue the exact length of its prominence) stretched from the Mediterranean to the boundaries of what is considered today as China. Though sounding a bit anachronistic, the Ottoman Empire –during what most historians contextualize as the early modern period of Europe- was the United States of its day.

Presently, we have a false fetishization of the map, in that we perceive peoples and cultures to be orderly and static in the face of a map. One of the most basic misnomers is that people in the past never migrated or travelled. How we reflexively examine the map, today, is that certain people belong and live in this certain section of world and others don’t, and time immemorial that was how it was. But that is completely false, because as historians, linguists, anthropologists and geographers (to name some disciplines) would attest to, it was not. Migration, displacement and human movement has been part and parcel of human beings through out time.

I bring up the idea of the map, because cartographically, we view the modern conceptions of the nation state as something that is permanent, with defined boundaries that never change (though reading some of the posts about Korean and Asian history, many of the people in this forum has moved beyond this premonition). To understand the historical context of the Ottoman Empire, you have to erase your present day conceptions of national boundaries. Here I will use the generic expression, “back then.” Back then, the influence of the Ottoman Empire would have included contemporary Spain, Italy and the surrounding territories of the Mediterranean region, as well as portions of what is known as outer Mongolia. Parts of Spain, for instance was still a Muslim nation (until the reconquista, which my girlfriend drives this point constantly; the same year as Columbus sailed the ocean blue), and what is the nation state of Italy today (as it was divided into city-states until Garibaldi and his horsemen “unified” in it the nineteen century) was politically and culturally interchanging with the Turks, because geopolitically, the powerbase of Europe was influenced by the Ottoman Empire. Here, historians call this region as the Levante (a city in Spain also takes this name). If you read primary texts, like ambassadorial logs, and travel memoirs, it’s quite amazing, because early modern English Ambassadors to the heart of the Ottoman Empire talk about how Italian traders, merchants and royalty circulated around the courts of Turkey. In most cases, Italian princesses were married into Ottoman royalty, converting into Islam; fascinating stuff.

Now, the Ottoman Empire stretched to portions of Asia Minor. This may explain why to this day, segments of western portions of China are Muslim (though, they questionably differentiate themselves as Han Chinese). Presently, if you read the news, these “Chinese” Muslims are being forced off their lands, as the Chinese government are appropriating the land, and implanting Han Chinese into the territory. The Chinese call this the “western frontiers” –they say this without a hint of irony. The decedents of these Chinese Muslims played an extremely important role in the Ottoman Empire. Most recently, there has been an exhibition displayed here in London about the cultural, political and geographical richness of the Ottomans, which has been constantly on the news:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4184715.stm

My awareness of the Ottoman Empire was due to my peripheral studies for my dissertation: in my first year, I had to read and examine the actual logs and journals; the primary textual sources as they say in literary history departments.

In short, I’m drunk, so I hope I made some sense. If not, I’ll try to be more coherent and structured in my explanation next time. If you have question, let me know, if not you can tell me to pish off. I’m heading off to bed.

[Hyok]

Originally Posted by Step-Over

Your professor is absolutely correct. Let me explain: The Ottoman Empire, which lasted from the fourteenth century up to the sixteenth century (though, some may argue the exact length of its prominence) stretched from the Mediterranean to the boundaries of what is considered today as China. Though sounding a bit anachronistic, the Ottoman Empire –during what most historians contextualize as the early modern period of Europe- was the United States of its day.

Presently, we have a false fetishization of the map, in that we perceive peoples and cultures to be orderly and static in the face of a map. One of the most basic misnomers is that people in the past never migrated or travelled. How we reflexively examine the map, today, is that certain people belong and live in this certain section of world and others don’t, and time immemorial that was how it was. But that is completely false, because as historians, linguists, anthropologists and geographers (to name some disciplines) would attest to, it was not. Migration, displacement and human movement has been part and parcel of human beings through out time.

I bring up the idea of the map, because cartographically, we view the modern conceptions of the nation state as something that is permanent, with defined boundaries that never change (though reading some of the posts about Korean and Asian history, many of the people in this forum has moved beyond this premonition). To understand the historical context of the Ottoman Empire, you have to erase your present day conceptions of national boundaries. Here I will use the generic expression, “back then.” Back then, the influence of the Ottoman Empire would have included contemporary Spain, Italy and the surrounding territories of the Mediterranean region, as well as portions of what is known as outer Mongolia. Parts of Spain, for instance was still a Muslim nation (until the reconquista, which my girlfriend drives this point constantly; the same year as Columbus sailed the ocean blue), and what is the nation state of Italy today (as it was divided into city-states until Garibaldi and his horsemen “unified” in it the nineteen century) was politically and culturally interchanging with the Turks, because geopolitically, the powerbase of Europe was influenced by the Ottoman Empire. Here, historians call this region as the Levante (a city in Spain also takes this name). If you read primary texts, like ambassadorial logs, and travel memoirs, it’s quite amazing, because early modern English Ambassadors to the heart of the Ottoman Empire talk about how Italian traders, merchants and royalty circulated around the courts of Turkey. In most cases, Italian princesses were married into Ottoman royalty, converting into Islam; fascinating stuff.

Now, the Ottoman Empire stretched to portions of Asia Minor. This may explain why to this day, segments of western portions of China are Muslim (though, they questionably differentiate themselves as Han Chinese). Presently, if you read the news, these “Chinese” Muslims are being forced off their lands, as the Chinese government are appropriating the land, and implanting Han Chinese into the territory. The Chinese call this the “western frontiers” –they say this without a hint of irony. The decedents of these Chinese Muslims played an extremely important role in the Ottoman Empire. Most recently, there has been an exhibition displayed here in London about the cultural, political and geographical richness of the Ottomans, which has been constantly on the news:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4184715.stm

My awareness of the Ottoman Empire was due to my peripheral studies for my dissertation: in my first year, I had to read and examine the actual logs and journals; the primary textual sources as they say in literary history departments.

In short, I’m drunk, so I hope I made some sense. If not, I’ll try to be more coherent and structured in my explanation next time. If you have question, let me know, if not you can tell me to pish off. I’m heading off to bed.

Hmm....after careful examination of your work...I must tell you, Garibaldi is also an orange colored fish of the Pacific coast that is very endangered. So, the next time you catch one, you need to let it go.

http://www.library.ca.gov/history/symbols/garibaldi.jpg

Step, the next time you come back stateside, let me know. I'll let you have a swig of my homebrew.

[jamisont]

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

I think there were quite a few Turkic generals throughout Chinese history but I don't know about a Persian guy.

Tang emperors married Turks often times because origin of Tang emperor was Turks. (Tang emepror was successor of one of 5 tribes who invaded into China and established 16 kingdoms in 4th century, those 5 tribes were consist of Huns, Turks and Tibetans..)

About Ottoman empire, I think he got it backward.
Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgystan, Turkmenistan and Uighur (east turkstan), thoes places are where Turks used to live before they moved into today's Turkey.

[the_13th_redneck]

Thankfully being well versed in Geography (after all that's what I studied) none of those concepts are alien to me. Migration, migration, migration... everything moves. Nothing is static.
You can have a lot of fun studying the migrations of things. Where did it go? Why did it go there? Does it still exist where it started? etc. Anyone who knows enough of Geography knows that once you know a few things, the myth of the "pure blood" becomes a work of fiction. Basically it's impossible because over the hundreds and thousands of years people have moved around everywhere.
Did you know that in terms of ethnic population, Sydney is the 2nd largest Greek city? More ethnic Greeks in Sydney than in all other cities except Athens. Though in the past the migrations were more en-masse, nowadays they are more widespread and less concentrated, though there are certain concentrations such as Koreans in Frankfurt and London for example.

Obviously I am bored to bits.

[the_13th_redneck]

Yeah. I believe those people and Koreans as well used to be in Central Asia/Mongolia/North Western China.
Koreans went where we are now. The rest kept going west. Hungarians are distantly related to us... and even more remotely, the Finns I think.

Originally Posted by jamisont

Tang emperors married Turks often times because origin of Tang emperor was Turks. (Tang emepror was successor of one of 5 tribes who invaded into China and established 16 kingdoms in 4th century, those 5 tribes were consist of Huns, Turks and Tibetans..)

About Ottoman empire, I think he got it backward.
Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgystan, Turkmenistan and Uighur (east turkstan), thoes places are where Turks used to live before they moved into today's Turkey.

[Step-Over]

Originally Posted by Hyok

Hmm....after careful examination of your work...I must tell you, Garibaldi is also an orange colored fish of the Pacific coast that is very endangered. So, the next time you catch one, you need to let it go.

http://www.library.ca.gov/history/symbols/garibaldi.jpg

Step, the next time you come back stateside, let me know. I'll let you have a swig of my homebrew.

I would be most grateful and honoured to try out your homebrew.

[dsk_oz]

Originally Posted by Step-Over

Your professor is absolutely correct. Let me explain: The Ottoman Empire, which lasted from the fourteenth century up to the sixteenth century (though, some may argue the exact length of its prominence) stretched from the Mediterranean to the boundaries of what is considered today as China. Though sounding a bit anachronistic, the Ottoman Empire –during what most historians contextualize as the early modern period of Europe- was the United States of its day.

Presently, we have a false fetishization of the map, in that we perceive peoples and cultures to be orderly and static in the face of a map. One of the most basic misnomers is that people in the past never migrated or travelled. How we reflexively examine the map, today, is that certain people belong and live in this certain section of world and others don’t, and time immemorial that was how it was. But that is completely false, because as historians, linguists, anthropologists and geographers (to name some disciplines) would attest to, it was not. Migration, displacement and human movement has been part and parcel of human beings through out time.

I bring up the idea of the map, because cartographically, we view the modern conceptions of the nation state as something that is permanent, with defined boundaries that never change (though reading some of the posts about Korean and Asian history, many of the people in this forum has moved beyond this premonition). To understand the historical context of the Ottoman Empire, you have to erase your present day conceptions of national boundaries. Here I will use the generic expression, “back then.” Back then, the influence of the Ottoman Empire would have included contemporary Spain, Italy and the surrounding territories of the Mediterranean region, as well as portions of what is known as outer Mongolia. Parts of Spain, for instance was still a Muslim nation (until the reconquista, which my girlfriend drives this point constantly; the same year as Columbus sailed the ocean blue), and what is the nation state of Italy today (as it was divided into city-states until Garibaldi and his horsemen “unified” in it the nineteen century) was politically and culturally interchanging with the Turks, because geopolitically, the powerbase of Europe was influenced by the Ottoman Empire. Here, historians call this region as the Levante (a city in Spain also takes this name). If you read primary texts, like ambassadorial logs, and travel memoirs, it’s quite amazing, because early modern English Ambassadors to the heart of the Ottoman Empire talk about how Italian traders, merchants and royalty circulated around the courts of Turkey. In most cases, Italian princesses were married into Ottoman royalty, converting into Islam; fascinating stuff.

Now, the Ottoman Empire stretched to portions of Asia Minor. This may explain why to this day, segments of western portions of China are Muslim (though, they questionably differentiate themselves as Han Chinese). Presently, if you read the news, these “Chinese” Muslims are being forced off their lands, as the Chinese government are appropriating the land, and implanting Han Chinese into the territory. The Chinese call this the “western frontiers” –they say this without a hint of irony. The decedents of these Chinese Muslims played an extremely important role in the Ottoman Empire. Most recently, there has been an exhibition displayed here in London about the cultural, political and geographical richness of the Ottomans, which has been constantly on the news:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4184715.stm

My awareness of the Ottoman Empire was due to my peripheral studies for my dissertation: in my first year, I had to read and examine the actual logs and journals; the primary textual sources as they say in literary history departments.

In short, I’m drunk, so I hope I made some sense. If not, I’ll try to be more coherent and structured in my explanation next time. If you have question, let me know, if not you can tell me to pish off. I’m heading off to bed.

Hmm, I'm sure that the Timurids and Persians will have something to say about the notion that the Ottoman empire stretched all the way to the borders of China ..

The historical high points of Ottoman borders were Hungary and Crimea to the north, Persia to the east, and North Africa to the south.

They were pretty huge, but stagnated in the later years ..