Why the Edu experiment was the right move. And why the BigSoccer moaners are wrong. (R)

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Nutmeg, Oct 10, 2010.

  1. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    I'll keep this simple and to the point.

    1. For the past 4 years, the US has been defensively poor.

    2. The regular US defenders make dumb defensive mistakes.

    3. The regular US defenders are very poor in distribution.

    4. Because US defenders spent 4 years clearing the puck, US midfielders were passed over, and US forwards were isolated. Worst of all, the US spacing was routinely awful, leaving gaps open and exposing US defenders.

    5. Chasing the game for long periods left the US team exhausted, further exposing the defense.

    6. The US depth in central midfield means one of our best soccer players would ride the bench if not used elsewhere.

    7. Given the US need to play decent soccer out of defense, and given the depth at central midfield, trying a central midfielder with the physical attributes to be successful in defense makes sense.

    8. If you are going to blood a player into an unfamiliar position, the time to start is now when results don't matter, no matter how much BS pretends they do.

    9. Edu, in spite of the bitching and moaning here, played pretty well. Perfect? No. But his composure and distribution from defense were visibly superior to any other US defender.

    10. Gooch blew a header, blatantly pushing off then whiffing it into a Polish foot. Poland scores their first goal. Boca loses his mark completely, despite having been abused by him all game. Poland scores their second goal. And we're talking about Edu?

    I almost feel dirty defending Bradley, but he made the right move here. That isn't to say I liked everything he did this game (play Holden centrally, please), but this move was called for.
     
  2. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nutmeg, I don't always agree with you.

    But you have for many years consistantly brought up the need for more composed players along the US backline. You are correct about that.

    BS has posts every day calling for a more composed, possesion style for the US. Every frigg'en day!

    So, it is astonishing that when the team actually recognises the need and actually tries a more composed ball-handler in the back, that the peanut gallery gets all up in arms.

    Blind Hypocrites.
     
  3. FirstStar

    FirstStar Hustlin' for the USA

    Fulham Football Club
    Feb 1, 2005
    Time's Arrow
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Very true, and a common affliction to national teams. It's what makes Spain's winning team so special- such a high level of talent spread so evenly across the field.

    Question is what you gain and lose by playing good players out of position. I think it's a case-by-case and position-by-position call. You can play some attacking midfielders up top (see Dempsey at Fulham) and be effective. However, the closer you get to your own goal, the more postional experience matters.

    Only in goal does experience matter more than for a Centerback. It's a friendly, so there's nothing wrong with experimenting. I give Bradley credit for trying something. And we may see Edu here again. However, he's not really a good centerback (yet) and needs a lot of experience to get there. So, if Bob is trying to convince Rangers to move Edu to CB, then this is a good plan. Bob certainly doesn't think that he has Edu for enough time every year to turn Edu into an international game read CB.

    Never seen a US CB distribute so well from the back. It was beautiful. It's definately an argument for using him there (as an emergency backup), but defending counts more than passing for a CB and Edu's defending was not the best.

    There's a one-word answer for your question-- Timmy. Edu completely lost his mark on the breakaway and Timmy pulled his ass out of the fire by stoning the forward on a 1v1. As good as Timmy is, that's still a low percentage defensive play.

    I'm not saying that Mo was bad, just that his inexperience in that position shows. I don't think you can make a good CB in the laboratory- I think you make one on the playing field. I think we've seen that Mo can be a good option as an emergency back-up (as he did, IIRC, against Slovenia) AND I'll freely admit now that he may be better in many regards than our other CB options (which is very sad), but I think there's better money to be made trying to develop players who play that position every day for their clubs.

    PS- anyone ripping Bob for this experiment is silly. It's a friendly- friendlies are time to experiment. Now- ripping Bob for not using his substitutions . . . that's a different story.
     
  4. ionprovisioner

    Nov 23, 2003
    Flint, Michigan
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm astonished that anyone thinks this (getting Mo Edu games in the backline) is a bad idea.
     
  5. Peretz48

    Peretz48 Member+

    Nov 9, 2003
    Los Angeles
    And look at all the other candidates-in-waiting. Not a thrilling cast. Goodson is no more than a backup. Demerit isn't even playing right now, and is looking for a club that will have him. Marshall looked like he would grow into an int'l level CB a while ago. That doesn't seem to be the case now. Parkhurst is undersized and not quite athletic enough for CB at this level.

    For all the plaudits that Omar G. has been getting, the jury is still out on his int'l future. Granted, he'll get his share of chances soon, but he's got a lot of improvement ahead before he convinces me. Ream hasn't even been called in yet, so we know almost nothing about whether (and how soon) he can transition to the int'l game. Beyond these two, other candidates are much longer-term prospects, guys like Boss and Opara.
     
  6. ionprovisioner

    Nov 23, 2003
    Flint, Michigan
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seriously. Did you see Marshall get turned inside-out by Peter freakin' Lowry Friday night?

    The reality is that the USA doesn't play a simple two-centerback system usually - there's a stopper-back who pushes high and challenges everything (Onyewu); that guy has be physically dominant, especially in the air - think John Terry. The other guy, the cover-back, has to stay on his feet, keep the play in front of him, and defuse deeper threats - think Rio Ferdinand.

    That second centerback needs to have plus speed, good intelligence, and a sense of calm, among other things. Which centerbacks in the pool offer those things? Cory Gibbs, before his injuries, had the wheels, but he's faded horribly. People offering Omar G., Parkhurst, Marshall or Goodson as options don't understand the covering role, I think. (Maybe Parkhurst, but he's clearly not the athlete you'd want in that position.)
     
  7. Scotty

    Scotty Member+

    Dec 15, 1999
    Toscana
    Center back history at club level

    Can someone give me some background info on this subject regarding Edu's club career?

    How many games has he played in central defense for Rangers? How many did he play at Toronto FC? Maryland Terps?
     
  8. Bigrose30

    Bigrose30 Member+

    Sep 11, 2004
    Jersey City, NJ
    Nobody whined when Edu played centerback against Slovenia. Bradley knows he's good in the back in a pinch, and he'll give him the occasional runout to keep him sharp.

    If there is a CB who is playing the position well week in and week out against high level competition, then they'll likely play over Edu.

    But right now, we have nobody. Not a single player.

    As far as playing it on the ground out of the back goes...well it can bite you. We are physical enough to play direct and have success. Finding the balance between the two is the key. We don't need to huck it every time, but there is no reason for a team with a stable of 6'+ players with size and speed to always try to play on the ground.
     
  9. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    The breakaway he allowed (just like the goal he was beaten on against the Czech Republic a few months ago) was the type of defending you would expect from a converted midfielder. Those kinds of errors are inevitable for center-backs without much experience at the position. The question is whether Edu could become familiar enough with the position given enough time with the national team to minimize such errors, or whether he would have to be playing the role regularly with his club to look comfortable in that position.

    The positive was that this was the first time I've seen that kind of skill and composure out of our backline in quite some while. Having Edu there not only made it so that we had one less defender booting the ball out of the back, but it gave all of the other players around him an outlet nearby to relieve pressure. There were several players who normally "clear the puck" who also improved their composure in the back yesterday, with the knowledge that Edu could control and deal with difficult passes.

    I also didn't think Edu struggled in the air or with physical encounters as much as people were predicting. And in the second half, he actually looked pretty assured at the position. I thought his quickness and mobility were a huge plus there. Honestly, I'd say that he probably has the attributes to play CB professionally if his coaches ever wanted to move him there permanently.
     
  10. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    Re: Center back history at club level

    Don't know about Toronto or Maryland (although I remember hearing that he had played some CB at Maryland), but I don't believe Edu has played a singe game at central defense for Rangers yet.
     
  11. CbR

    CbR Member

    Nov 10, 2000
    Bergen County NJ
    speaking of puck clearing ..how many times did Gooch boot it up field right to the Poles? most of the time he wasnt even pressured.

    i know Gooch gets a lot of love around here but in order for our NT program to take the next step we're going to need CB's that can pass the ball and break pressure with passes and ball movement.

    Im fine with Edu being Bradley's new project at CB. The talent is clearly there.

    Cant wait for January camp (ream, opara, gonzo)
     
  12. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    Re: Center back history at club level

    I don't think he has played central defense during his club career. He did play there for the Olympic team.

    Whenever I see Mo play, I'm impressed by his left foot. He can really deliver a nice long pass with it. Exhibit A was the long pass that created the goal scoring opportunity for Jozy. I bring this up because to me the real position of need in the upcoming cycle is likely to be left back. I'm happy with the sheer number of promising central defenders--Boss, Ream, Gonzalez, Opara, John. I think ultimately if there is a conversion it is more likely to come at left back. But for now I'm happy to see Mo get some experience somewhere on the defensive line. That's certainly better than him watching the game from the bench.
     
  13. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm probably going to be in the minority, but unless Bradley got word that Rangers are going to start playing Edu in central defense, this move is a waste of time. Edu's positioning was erratic all night, our defensive line was poor all night. It's not fair to ask Edu to play there if the only time he ever does is with the Nats.
     
  14. El Michael

    El Michael Member

    Dec 17, 2009
    Club:
    DC United
    For starters I think Edu is equal to Jones and looking at 2014 will be better. His play at CB was really good considering he had to cover for Boca and and a few mistakes by Gooch, Bradley and Jones. The left footed pass he made to Jozy was class.
     
  15. alocksley

    alocksley Member

    Jan 30, 2004
    Burbank, CA
    Now is the time for this kind of experimentation, so I have no problem with the move. This process really should have started when Onyewu went down with his knee injury, though. There was plenty of time before the World Cup to find a decent CB pairing and Bob failed to do so.
     
  16. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    So first we have this.

    And then we have this.

    The real BigSoccer is back!! And the cycle's hasn't even started really!!

    Let's get ready to rumble!

    Actually I am of two minds on this. On the one hand, it's a meaningless friendly VERY early in the cycle.

    On the other hand, it's the classic case of a manager deciding to put his best 11 on the field even if he has to shoehorn one guy into a position that he CAN play in a pinch but is really not his natural position. It's -- and I can't believe I am saying this, but here goes -- a youth soccer coaching approach.

    Hey, I almost feel dirty DISSING Bob Bradley.

    What this move DOES show, as others have mentioned, is that we have serious, serious, SERIOUS issues in central defense. And unless some youngish defender (we all know who the usual suspects are now) steps up big time and makes an irrefutable case for his inclusion, it's going to be an unsolvable problem in this cycle, and we'd all better get used to it right now.

    That is the real message to take away from this game.
     
  17. Bigrose30

    Bigrose30 Member+

    Sep 11, 2004
    Jersey City, NJ
    If Gooch regains form, Tim Ream and Omar Gonzalez step in to the team, Goodson continues to improve and Bocanegra and Demerit remain reliable veterans, then we'll be as good as we ever have been at central defense. Which, of course, is average at best.

    Yes, some things need to fall into place, but it can work out.
     
  18. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    I think two of these -- Ream and Gonzalez -- are bigger "ifs" than most imagine.

    Here's where a manager earns his money behind the scenes. How? Telling these guys, "Look, you're on the radar but you have to get MUCH better and more consistent here...here....and here."
     
  19. Scorpion26

    Scorpion26 Member

    May 1, 2007
    NY
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I agree with SuperDave and I feel Edu should be playing in the midfield. Forget Jones he had made his choice 8 years ago to play for Germany and honestly should not play for the US since his goal was to play in the WC not because he felt an American pride.

    I would of rather like to see Spector, Parkhurst, or Goodson partner with Onyewu. We got some decent young CB's that are coming up and I feel it would be best to give them a chance to prove themselves. Also I'm hoping Boca retires from the international game after the Gold Cup maybe Cherundolo also.

    Its like a diss to our actual CBs when you put someone else who plays a different position sloted into your position. Give them a chance to either rise up or mess up.
     
  20. Bigrose30

    Bigrose30 Member+

    Sep 11, 2004
    Jersey City, NJ
    After less than one season in MLS, I expect Tim Ream is going to get a lot better.

    That being said, I think he's already good enough to be starting for the US. He was the best player on the field in the NY-RSL game, which had some pretty good talent.

    Omar could go either way at this point, I agree.
     
  21. appoo

    appoo Member+

    Jul 30, 2001
    USA
    I thought Jones, along with Holden, were our best players on the pitch.

    Also agree with Nutmeg. Moving Edu to CB is a great experiment at the beginning of a cycle. He can be our Rafa Marquez.
     
  22. MLSNHTOWN

    MLSNHTOWN Member+

    Oct 27, 1999
    Houston, TX
    I am not opposed to the Edu to CB experiment. I just don't know why Geoff Cameron hasn't gotten a call up or two more than he has for the exact reasons cited to move Edu to CB.

    He provides the distribution out of the back that an Edu to CB provides and he actually plays more CB at the club level.

    But despite the fact that Houston is already eliminated, BB didn't call him in.

    Plus I think that Cameron would be a more physical defender than Edu and better at the international level in that regard.
     
  23. lurking

    lurking Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    True, but that is not nescessarily due to personel.

    Also true, but I think equally worrisome is how the rest of their teammates react to those mistakes.

    Not entirely true. Part of the issue comes down to how we play not offering a lot of strong options in building through the midfield. The forwards get isolated because we frequently have two forwards high.

    I think your laying a lot at the defensive personel's feet here that has other possible and in my opinion, more likely causes.

    All true, but I dont think a national team coach has a whole lot of time to make such a conversion. Hes only seeing the player for a week at a time, and if its not a smoothe transition from the start, I dont know if he can give the players the number of reps to grow into it, even over a 4 year cycle.


    You can blame Oneywu and Boca, but Edu had a mistake of similar magnitude, that just wasn't punished.

    The bigger thing for me though was that Edu's instincts looked wrong for a defender. He was doing a very poor job of maintaining awareness of the offside line. Its something that can be taught, but I dont think it can be taught easily if you don't have a natural aptitude.

    Now I'm fine with conversions at the national team level when they look like they will be smooth ones, but Edu's does not look like it will be a smooth one. I think he would need a lot of minutes at center back to learn the positioning better, and I dont think there will be enough time at the national team level to make the conversion in his case.

    Edu at CB reminds me a little of Marvell Wynne at outside back. I can see why, and its tempting, but I dont ever think you are going to get what you want. Contrary to many people's beliefs, it was never Marvell's technical abilities that made him struggle, it was his lack of feel for the timing of when to get forward, and when to stay back.

    So with Edu at CB, I don't blame Bradley for trying, but I don't think hes going to ever get what he wants from that move. Just my opinion though.
     
  24. Scorpion26

    Scorpion26 Member

    May 1, 2007
    NY
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    True but I can remember reading that Kinnear said Cameron would be better fit playing in the midfield rather the def for the US.
     
  25. chrisinho

    chrisinho Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Back in HelLA
    We should also consider that the insertion of Edu may have contributed to the overall shakiness of the back-line. Especially the spacing.

    Those of you who have played defense before, you'll agree that there's a zone you enter as a defensive unit when everybody knows their role and where they're supposed to be. Even if somebody isn't the best at their position or is having an off day, you know what to look for and how to cover. It's about chemistry, rhythm and timing. But when you're playing with somebody who doesn't know their position, then you start overthinking everything and it can affect everything and everyone. Personally, I hated it when this sort of player came in or if a middie had to play in the back with us.And that's in an amateur (albeit competitive) sunday league. I can only imagine that it gets more intense the higher the level.

    To that end, as a program, we need to stop with positional experimentation. Unless it's an emergency, we need to utilize players who, day in and day out, play and understand the intricacies of their position. Are you a left back or aren't you? Are you center back or aren't you? Where do you play for your club team? Done.
     

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