[drenasu]

I recently got called for 2 PKs against in my coed league (I'm the sweeper, and those were the first two ever called against me in about 80 games or so) in which slide tackling is not allowed. I'd like some perspective on this to know if I was correct. In the first one, a forward from the other team and I were in a full sprint for a loose ball on the ground. I was running straight towards my own goal and the forward was heading towards the goal on about a 45 degree angle. We both got a piece of the ball at essentially the same time and crashed our shoulders together in a somewhat violent collision. We both fell down. I got called for a foul and we gave up a PK. The second one was almost the same except that I actually got my foot on the ball a split second before the forward did and again we both went to the ground. Fortunately, karma was with us as the other team missed both of their PKs and we converted on one of our own in the 90th minute to win the game 4-3. Also, the field was extremely sloppy, it was raining, we have no ARs and field is only lit from one side. The ref was probably 30 yards away on both calls.

I think that the first one should have been a no-call and the second either a foul in my favor, or more likely a no-call again.

I'm sure no one will believe me on this, but I believe the ref was predisposed to calls against me as he told me he 'remembered me from a previous game' in a tone of voice that led me to think that he thought I have a habit of playing violently after I complained about a previous call that went against me. The game he refers to was the one in which I got my first card (yellow) in 3 years (about 80 games).

Anyway, I sent in ref evaluation, but since it's highly unlikely that I'm going to get feedback, I thought I'd post here to hear what other refs think.

[Andyrey]

Not being there, I can only give an opinion based on your description. You said

'I was running straight towards my own goal and the forward was heading towards the goal on about a 45 degree angle.'

and

'...and crashed our shoulders together in a somewhat violent collision.'

From this description, I deduce that the forward had the ball and you charged the forward (shoulder to shoulder) using excessive force. This is one of the 10 penal fouls. You are allowed to charge an opponent shoulder to shoulder as long as it is not 'careless, reckless or using excessive force'.

[IASocFan]

As you describe them, it would be difficult to make a call. However, the ref has his own view of the play. He has to judge if someone played unfairly, sometimes it will be against the player who got there last, sometimes it will be against the more aggressive or larger player, sometimes it will against a player known to cause problems. The ref has a very short period of time to make the call, because the next play is already started.

It sounds like you may fall into the third category. If you get this ref again, I would suggest being extra polite, and avoid collisions - particularly in the box! If you see him frequently, it may take a few games to convince him you're not violent. If not, it sounds like you're playing OK as far as the other refs are concerned.

[drenasu]

Originally posted by Andyrey

From this description, I deduce that the forward had the ball and you charged the forward (shoulder to shoulder) using excessive force. This is one of the 10 penal fouls. You are allowed to charge an opponent shoulder to shoulder as long as it is not 'careless, reckless or using excessive force'.

Actually, the ball was loose because the forward had kicked it about 10-15 yards ahead so as not to be slowed down by dribbling. If there was slide tackling allowed, I could have easily of tackled the ball away cleanly, but without that option, it's either get there at the same time, or let him go in alone on the keeper. In fact, to avoid yet another PK, a let the guy go in on third one of these and of course he scored.

[billf]

Originally posted by Andyrey
Not being there, I can only give an opinion based on your description. You said

'I was running straight towards my own goal and the forward was heading towards the goal on about a 45 degree angle.'

and

'...and crashed our shoulders together in a somewhat violent collision.'

From this description, I deduce that the forward had the ball and you charged the forward (shoulder to shoulder) using excessive force. This is one of the 10 penal fouls. You are allowed to charge an opponent shoulder to shoulder as long as it is not 'careless, reckless or using excessive force'.

If he used excessive force, wouldn't that be a sendoff? I thought the standard USSF instruction was that careless is a foul and a FK, reckless is a foul, caution, and a FK, and that excessive force is a foul, send off, and a FK.

[Chicago76]

Here's my quick take on the situation. Judging from your description of the incident, I'm guessing the league probably isn't that competitive and the overall quality of the officiating probably isn't very high. The referee is out there to make sure things don't get out of hand and no one gets hurt. A lot of times refs in this situation tend to favor the offensive player more than the defensive player. The defender may be in his right to exert some physical contact, but because the defensive player initiates contact 3 times out of 4, and the league doesn't want someone getting hurt, the defender is less likely to get the benefit of the doubt.

It's not the true laws of the game, but they suit the purpose of the league--a fun, safe game. The refs at this level will be very inconsistent in how the apply laws, so try to adjust your game to them. They're not going to adjust theirs for you.

[Andyrey]

Drenasu, pushing the ball ahead is part of dribbling. I would have to see the play to make a judgment. The fact remains that there was a shoulder charge and it was done using excessive force. If both of you got there at the same time, he (the forward) was moving in the same direction as the ball (since he pushed it forward), so I probably would decide that you charged the forward, instead of the forward charged you, so the foul would be against you. Note that the key to this is the excessive force. That is the only thing that makes it a foul.

Billf, from the description, I did not get the impression that this was 'serious foul play', but just a charge using excessive force. I also did not get the impression that it was a 'tactical foul' that would merit a caution.

[billf]

Originally posted by Andyrey
Drenasu, pushing the ball ahead is part of dribbling. I would have to see the play to make a judgment. The fact remains that there was a shoulder charge and it was done using excessive force. If both of you got there at the same time, he (the forward) was moving in the same direction as the ball (since he pushed it forward), so I probably would decide that you charged the forward, instead of the forward charged you, so the foul would be against you. Note that the key to this is the excessive force. That is the only thing that makes it a foul.

Billf, from the description, I did not get the impression that this was 'serious foul play', but just a charge using excessive force. I also did not get the impression that it was a 'tactical foul' that would merit a caution.

Got it! Sometimes I read things too literally. Thanks for the clarification.

[drenasu]

Originally posted by Andyrey
Drenasu, pushing the ball ahead is part of dribbling. I would have to see the play to make a judgment. The fact remains that there was a shoulder charge and it was done using excessive force. If both of you got there at the same time, he (the forward) was moving in the same direction as the ball (since he pushed it forward), so I probably would decide that you charged the forward, instead of the forward charged you, so the foul would be against you. Note that the key to this is the excessive force. That is the only thing that makes it a foul.

I guess I see your point, but it just seems odd to me because this sort of play happens fairly often (three times in that game alone, but usually once a game is normal), so it would seem that I would have had it called against me sometime before in one of the previous 80 or so games I played in this league. I still don't see why a no-call is not the correct call in this case as we both did exactly the same thing to each other at exactly the same time, with both of us kicking the ball before contact. Common sense would seem to favor a no-call, but I'm not a ref so what do I know?

Anyway, thanks for the responses everyone.

[Statesman]

Originally posted by Andyrey
Billf, from the description, I did not get the impression that this was 'serious foul play', but just a charge using excessive force. I also did not get the impression that it was a 'tactical foul' that would merit a caution.

Well, to avoid confusion there's a bit of mixed terminology here. A "Serious Foul Play" is a foul that is done with excessive force, resulting in a red card and ejection of the player. I think a better way to describe the incident might be a "hard tackle" in the box.

From the sounds of it, the attacker had broke free from the defensive line (possible offside trap gone awry?) You, as the second to last defender, gave chase before the attacker could create a goal-scoring opportunity. The attacker kicks the ball forward about 10-15 feet into the penalty area instead of dribbling forward (probably because he knew you were coming and wanted to get a shot off faster before you arrived). You, as the defender, charge straight for the free ball while the attacker is still in a sprint. Being the faster player, you both reach the ball at the same time and slam into each other.

In the eyes of the referee, he probably felt the attacker had the upper hand when going to play the ball. You reached him in full stride and slammed into him, inside the box, as he was about to take a shot. In other words, you wiped out the attacker in desperation by not breaking stride as he was about to score a goal. The only real saving grace of the situation was that the attacker himself was also in full stride attempting to play the ball first. If my analysis of the situation is accurate, I think there most definitely would be a case for a penalty awarded if the referee felt the attacker had the upper hand. If the attacker had indeed reached the ball first, established position, only to be clobbered by the sprinting defender it would result in either a yellow or red card. Since the attacker was running too, the ref only awarded the PK.

Also remember that this evidently is a recreational league due to the coed nature and the no slide tackle rule. Even though you gave it your all to prevent the shot from going off, you did endanger the safety of the attacker in a desperation move (clobbering him despite shoulder-to-shoulder). If slide tackling were allowed you could safely clear the ball, but since it was not there was nothing you could really do "safely" except pray your keeper would block the shot