[Grizzlierbear]

In my opinion any actions by a substitute who directly enters the FOP and fouls an opponent is a direct red card. My opinions however measured, humble or steadfast are not law. In seeking clarification and understanding I try to sift through the available information but admittedly come up short in many cases as to a final solution.

If the opposing player was say off the FOP through normal playing momentum when fouled by the substitute since no illegal entry if present then possibly only a yellow caution depending on the severity of the misconduct.

Is there a school of thought as to whether a FAIR challenge or even a Careless challange can be made with impunity) by a substitute? Please give an example if you believe this to be true?

I have some leanings towards a substitute meerly playing the ball in some manner yellow is acceptable. IN otherwards a challange that involves no actual physical contact with an opposing player. The substitute accepts a pass and tries to continue play.
But If a substitute enters the FOP and uses his hands say to pick the ball up or runs in and kicks the ball away is this still only a caution?
What if a goal scoring opportunity is lost?

Something to consider is a substitute that is on the FOP and the referee is not aware of direct entry (does not see the initial entry) most likely in a match without ARs or unlimited substitutions as in youth matches. The fact that the substitute may be there as a result of referee error, coaches mistake, or an over eagar wannabe sub/player when committing a challange is more likely to be judged on the merits of the challange as would a player since he was not directly seen by the referee entering and would not at that time be aware this was indeed a substitute. It is entirely possible that this substitute may believe himself to be a player and all his actions in fair or careless challanges maybe over a period of time before it is noted that he is indeed a substitute on the FOP without permission.

An example on a blue throw, red requests a substitute. As referee you say No and wave them off as blue looks likely to continue the attacking play with a quick throw however as you turn away to follow the throw the red player on the far side of the FOP is very tired and was only listening to the cry of SUB as he is glad to get out steps off and the red substitute steps on glad to be able to join the action. This sub eagar to be involved shortly makes a reasonable tackle trying to take the ball away from the blue player. In your mind you think the tackle is a bit careless and blow for the DFK. As he picks himself up you now see he is the red player who was waiting to come on and you said no. As referee since you stopped play for a DFK must you now change it to a drop ball? Or is a INDFK an option? Show only the yellow card to the sub not red? and to the player who should not have stepped off only a yellow as well?

In the case where you actually SEE the substitute illegally enter the FOP and then immediately perform a clean tackle (win ball no physical contact with opposition)or a careless kick or trip before you can whistle a stoppage would we not be reaching for red in any case?

The FIFA Q&A gives us an example that indicates to me unfair intervention is a red card although it does not explain whether it is for the violent conduct or a double yellow for entering without the referee's permission and further misconduct. Also I admit the question says absolutely nothing about whether the ball was being challanged when a kick occurs.

http://www.fifa.com/refs/qa_E.html
Law 3 Number of PLayers
#6 Question
A substitute, who is not participating in the match, runs onto the field of play and kicks an opponent. What action does the referee take?
#6 Answer
The referee stops the match, sends off the substitute, shows him the red card and restarts the match by dropping the ball at the place where it was when play was stopped.*
-------------------------------------------------

Law 12 Fouls and Misconduct
#3 Question
A player who has left the field of play to receive treatment trips an opponent inside the field. What action does the referee take?
#3 Answer
The player is cautioned for unsporting behaviour and play is restarted with a direct free kick.

Notice the card being shown is yellow. The bug here is there is no mention of entering without permission. The card is for the USB actions of unfairly challanging for the ball by tripping the opponent. Again I say if the injured player reaches inside the FOP with a leg to administer the trip in my opinion he has entered without permission whether his other body part remains outside the FOP is unimportant. Also I again point out if the opposing player was off the FOP through normal play momentum the actions by the injured player would incur the same penalty?

My confusion is why is a kick by a substitute waiting to enter or not yet allowed and a trip by a player also waiting to enter but not yet allowed incurr a different card colour?
Nothing is mentioned as being careless, reckless or excessive. Nor is any mention of an attempted challange for the ball indicated

In essence it boils down to my unwillingness to accept that ANY actions by a player or a substitute who CANNOT LEGALLY UNDER THE LAWS OF THE GAME be ON the FOP against an OPPOSING PLAYER be other than at least a second cautionable offence for further misconduct (two cautions thus red send off.) USB is present IN all cases as is Entering Without Permission. The severity of the actions be they reckless or excessive is additional fuel to the fire. It seems to be simple yet it is rehashed at almost every certification or training seminar I attend.

If a referee was to whistle play dead at the moment the sub steps onto the FOP it is a yellow card. Then any further action by the sub against an opponent would be additional misconduct. A continuation of a tackle be it fair or careless would be unacceptable in my books. Yet if a sub was to jump in and commit the same actions before I whistled play dead there are those who maintain only a caution is in order?


I know the ramblings above are a lot to digest so I will ask these questions. Remember in all questions the sub is on the FOP WITHOUT PERMISSION and all actions take place on the FOP. For my good colleagues inclined to answer or lend an opinion can you please state why and share your reasoning to one or any of my questions. I thank all in advance for input and comment.

#1 Can a substitute make a fair challange or a careless challange on the FOP and not be punished with anything other than a single caution yellow card?
#2 Can a substitute enter the FOP and kick or pick the ball up and not be punished with anything other than a single caution yellow card?
#3 Can a substitute enter the FOP and kick or pick the ball up denying a goal or scoring opportunity and not be punished with anything other than a single caution yellow card?
#4 Can a referee allow advantage if he actually sees a substitute enter the FOP?
#5 Must a referee immediately stop play if he sees the substitute enter the FOP or can he wait till the substitute involves himself in play or the ball goes out of play?

[Greyhnd00]

Originally posted by Grizzlierbear
In my opinion any actions by a substitute who directly enters the FOP and fouls an opponent is a direct red card. My opinions however measured, humble or steadfast are not law. In seeking clarification and understanding I try to sift through the available information but admittedly come up short in many cases as to a final solution.

If the opposing player was say off the FOP through normal playing momentum when fouled by the substitute since no illegal entry if present then possibly only a yellow caution depending on the severity of the misconduct.

Is there a school of thought as to whether a FAIR challenge or even a Careless challange can be made with impunity) by a substitute? Please give an example if you believe this to be true?

I have some leanings towards a substitute meerly playing the ball in some manner yellow is acceptable. IN otherwards a challange that involves no actual physical contact with an opposing player. The substitute accepts a pass and tries to continue play.
But If a substitute enters the FOP and uses his hands say to pick the ball up or runs in and kicks the ball away is this still only a caution?
What if a goal scoring opportunity is lost?

Something to consider is a substitute that is on the FOP and the referee is not aware of direct entry (does not see the initial entry) most likely in a match without ARs or unlimited substitutions as in youth matches. The fact that the substitute may be there as a result of referee error, coaches mistake, or an over eagar wannabe sub/player when committing a challange is more likely to be judged on the merits of the challange as would a player since he was not directly seen by the referee entering and would not at that time be aware this was indeed a substitute. It is entirely possible that this substitute may believe himself to be a player and all his actions in fair or careless challanges maybe over a period of time before it is noted that he is indeed a substitute on the FOP without permission.

An example on a blue throw, red requests a substitute. As referee you say No and wave them off as blue looks likely to continue the attacking play with a quick throw however as you turn away to follow the throw the red player on the far side of the FOP is very tired and was only listening to the cry of SUB as he is glad to get out steps off and the red substitute steps on glad to be able to join the action. This sub eagar to be involved shortly makes a reasonable tackle trying to take the ball away from the blue player. In your mind you think the tackle is a bit careless and blow for the DFK. As he picks himself up you now see he is the red player who was waiting to come on and you said no. As referee since you stopped play for a DFK must you now change it to a drop ball? Or is a INDFK an option? Show only the yellow card to the sub not red? and to the player who should not have stepped off only a yellow as well?

In the case where you actually SEE the substitute illegally enter the FOP and then immediately perform a clean tackle (win ball no physical contact with opposition)or a careless kick or trip before you can whistle a stoppage would we not be reaching for red in any case?

The FIFA Q&A gives us an example that indicates to me unfair intervention is a red card although it does not explain whether it is for the violent conduct or a double yellow for entering without the referee's permission and further misconduct. Also I admit the question says absolutely nothing about whether the ball was being challanged when a kick occurs.

http://www.fifa.com/refs/qa_E.html
Law 3 Number of PLayers
#6 Question
A substitute, who is not participating in the match, runs onto the field of play and kicks an opponent. What action does the referee take?
#6 Answer
The referee stops the match, sends off the substitute, shows him the red card and restarts the match by dropping the ball at the place where it was when play was stopped.*
-------------------------------------------------

Law 12 Fouls and Misconduct
#3 Question
A player who has left the field of play to receive treatment trips an opponent inside the field. What action does the referee take?
#3 Answer
The player is cautioned for unsporting behaviour and play is restarted with a direct free kick.

Notice the card being shown is yellow. The bug here is there is no mention of entering without permission. The card is for the USB actions of unfairly challanging for the ball by tripping the opponent. Again I say if the injured player reaches inside the FOP with a leg to administer the trip in my opinion he has entered without permission whether his other body part remains outside the FOP is unimportant. Also I again point out if the opposing player was off the FOP through normal play momentum the actions by the injured player would incur the same penalty?

My confusion is why is a kick by a substitute waiting to enter or not yet allowed and a trip by a player also waiting to enter but not yet allowed incurr a different card colour?
Nothing is mentioned as being careless, reckless or excessive. Nor is any mention of an attempted challange for the ball indicated

In essence it boils down to my unwillingness to accept that ANY actions by a player or a substitute who CANNOT LEGALLY UNDER THE LAWS OF THE GAME be ON the FOP against an OPPOSING PLAYER be other than at least a second cautionable offence for further misconduct (two cautions thus red send off.) USB is present IN all cases as is Entering Without Permission. The severity of the actions be they reckless or excessive is additional fuel to the fire. It seems to be simple yet it is rehashed at almost every certification or training seminar I attend.

If a referee was to whistle play dead at the moment the sub steps onto the FOP it is a yellow card. Then any further action by the sub against an opponent would be additional misconduct. A continuation of a tackle be it fair or careless would be unacceptable in my books. Yet if a sub was to jump in and commit the same actions before I whistled play dead there are those who maintain only a caution is in order?


I know the ramblings above are a lot to digest so I will ask these questions. Remember in all questions the sub is on the FOP WITHOUT PERMISSION and all actions take place on the FOP. For my good colleagues inclined to answer or lend an opinion can you please state why and share your reasoning to one or any of my questions. I thank all in advance for input and comment.

#1 Can a substitute make a fair challange or a careless challange on the FOP and not be punished with anything other than a single caution yellow card?
#2 Can a substitute enter the FOP and kick or pick the ball up and not be punished with anything other than a single caution yellow card?
#3 Can a substitute enter the FOP and kick or pick the ball up denying a goal or scoring opportunity and not be punished with anything other than a single caution yellow card?
#4 Can a referee allow advantage if he actually sees a substitute enter the FOP?
#5 Must a referee immediately stop play if he sees the substitute enter the FOP or can he wait till the substitute involves himself in play or the ball goes out of play?

I guess what I am thinking of is, did the player who illegally sustitute make an honest mistake and not know that he was not allowed on.....If so, I think it would be a bit harsh to send him off.

[Statesman]

I think you might want to break this post down a bit more and be a bit more clear in your examples and questions. I skimmed through it and got completely lost quite a few times.

[Alberto]

Originally posted by Statesman
I think you might want to break this post down a bit more and be a bit more clear in your examples and questions. I skimmed through it and got completely lost quite a few times.

The answer as to why the unnamed sub, off the field is sent off for kicking has nothing to do with the fact he was off the field of play and had not been properly substituted. It has all to do with his actions. Kicking an opponent ie: striking an opponent.

#1: He could be cautioned for a challenge and shown a second caution for entering the field illegally. Thus he is sent to the showers.

#2: It's a caution. He entered the field illegally.

#3: If he denies a goal he should be sent off. The restart would be a dropped ball. he is an outside agent.

#4: Boy this could be troublesome. Only allow advantage if the attacking team has a good chance to score. Otherwise blow the whistle to avoid items 1-3 from happening.

#5: see my answer to item #4.

[Grizzlierbear]

Originally posted by Alberto


The answer as to why the unnamed sub, off the field is sent off for kicking has nothing to do with the fact he was off the field of play and had not been properly substituted. It has all to do with his actions. Kicking an opponent ie: striking an opponent.

I tend to agree but as kicking is a penal foul as is tripping the FIFA Q&A question would be better served if it stated violent conduct rather than a penal foul where we are to judge if careless, reckless or excessive. In the other question it states trip by a player off the FOP tending injury awaiting permission to re-enter

Are you implying then that if a player is off the FOP to tend injury then renters without permission and tries to kick the ball away from a passing opposing player as opposed to tripping him it turns to red instead of yellow? Is not the option of considering a careless,reckless or excessive amount of force at issue or only that the actions were attempted at all? Is the option only reserved for players?

The injured off the FOP player or the off the FOP substitute neither are permitted on the FOP so ANY conduct must be at least USB in addition to rentering without permission.
My point being is not any attempt or action of a penal offence kick, trip, jump or push, strike or charge or hold, spit, tackles or handles the ball deliberately additional misconduct?

Originally posted by Alberto

#1: He could be cautioned for a challenge and shown a second caution for entering the field illegally. Thus he is sent to the showers.

Alberto that is not answering the question. It is a given that a reckless tackle or excessive tackle will make the red card appear. CAN there be a fair challange or a careless challange one that we as a referee would accept by a player in the normal course of play. Are not these actions be it fair or careless considered as additional misconduct USB for unfairly interfering with play? Particularily if we see the substitute in an instant actively enter without permission and participate thus you are aware from that moment not after the fact.

Originally posted by Alberto

#2: It's a caution. He entered the field illegally.

Why? If a player was to pick up the ball with his hands we would give him a caution for stopping attacking play? Why are the actions of an illegal person on the FOP as a substitute any less USB?

Greyhound's point about applying LAW 18 if a substitute is present as a player through an error of communication I see some room for tolerance and apply only one caution if there was indeed two cautions present.
However I remain steadfast if a substitute awaiting entry jumps into play quickly, deliberately with the sole purpose of breaking up attacking play and unfairly affecting the game or making or attempting physical contact with another there must always be a double caution minimum thus red whether or not a opposing player's safety was at stake, whether or not a tackle is only careless.

Originally posted by Alberto

#3: If he denies a goal he should be sent off. The restart would be a dropped ball. he is an outside agent.

Here we are in total agreement. )
The double yellow caution EWTRP and the USB of denying the goal

Originally posted by Alberto

#4: Boy this could be troublesome. Only allow advantage if the attacking team has a good chance to score. Otherwise blow the whistle to avoid items 1-3 from happening.
#5: see my answer to item #4.

This was raised in several clinics as this situation (EWOTRP) is not part of law 12 advantage is not a consideration although LAW 18 has possibilities. It was expressed as in the example of a dog running onto the FOP. We signal immediately for stoppage as we can not know the intentions of the dog yet we know that a substitute who runs in particularily as an additional 12th person is up to no good. A quick whistle that stops the opposing team from continuing attacking play should include both a caution for ETFOPWTRP and the USB of denying attacking play by having to stop play especially if the opposing team was in possesion, in the process of attacking play or about to take a shot. A red card would be the correct punishment in my opinion. Yet I find no real support in LAW for my feeling that gives me conviction I could make it stick. I admittedly have problems seperating my personal sense of fairness and expectations from the duties and powers we are instructed to deliver in LAW.
No matter how I word a question it seems there are no concrete answers only vague misgivings as to whether there is only one correct answer.