[DoyleG]

Start with 8 Team (Van, Cal, Edm, Win, Tor, Ham, Ott, Mtl)

Have team budgets capped at $2 Million/team.

Single table. No divisions.

Have the teams play 2 times against each other for 14 games. Play the 3 regional rivals for 2 more games each. Giving a regular season of 20 games. The extra games make up for the lack of a division.

[Gordon]

Originally posted by DoyleG
Start with 8 Team (Van, Cal, Edm, Win, Tor, Ham, Ott, Mtl)

Have team budgets capped at $2 Million/team.

Single table. No divisions.

Have the teams play 2 times against each other for 14 games. Play the 3 regional rivals for 2 more games each. Giving a regular season of 20 games. The extra games make up for the lack of a division.

OK, good start. Now show me a budget that says $2 million is viable and can concievably lead to a profit. Assume an 18 man squad, with perhaps only 16 travelling. Use bus travel where feasible i.e. Toronto-Hamilton, Calgary-Edmonton. Hotels can be double occupancy and they don't have to be the Ritz. Don't forget per diem for players, stadium rentals and support staff. Also, over how many months is your schedule to run? Also, do we do North American Style playoff or European style top of the table wins it? And do we have a CSA Cup (Extra games = extra costs and revenues).

[DoyleG]

Originally posted by Gordon


OK, good start. Now show me a budget that says $2 million is viable and can concievably lead to a profit. Assume an 18 man squad, with perhaps only 16 travelling. Use bus travel where feasible i.e. Toronto-Hamilton, Calgary-Edmonton. Hotels can be double occupancy and they don't have to be the Ritz. Don't forget per diem for players, stadium rentals and support staff. Also, over how many months is your schedule to run? Also, do we do North American Style playoff or European style top of the table wins it? And do we have a CSA Cup (Extra games = extra costs and revenues).

Bus travel can be used more than just between two cities. Look at the PFC ehich travels by bus for most matches. In the east, the trains can be used for travel. Salries would be included, but kept down through player import restrictions. Refer to a post I had left earlier on this board for budget ideas. Support staff would be the minnimum required for an effective team. The table would be of the euro-style, which would generate more support than the north american style.

Another source of revenue would be soccer camps for kids that would be run by the club.

[Krammerhead]

Well I for one truly want a Canadian league but I don't see Vancouver Whitecaps joining as it does not benefit them. The nearest team to Vancouver in this league would be Calgary. In the A-League at least Vancouver is close Portland and Seattle. Also there is no point in a league only playing 20 game seasons. That would be asking me, someone who attends all Whitecaps games, to give up four home games a season.

20 game seasons is not long enough.

[CalgaryMJ]

Need to work on your proposals more. If you're going to budget a set amount, don't go introduce supposedly new revenue streams part way through to justify the initial outlay. And you talk about keeping support staff to a minimum, but it is those support staff who are crucial to driving the game ahead. Unless you have a host of volunteers with specialized skills doing the marketing, the advertising (and no they aren't the same), sales and group sales, media relations and press releases and someone managing these areas to keep them in line and on budget all you've got is a touring senior team that won't attract much attention. The train is not much cheaper then then airfare and offers less convenience in terms on connections. I'd recommend you throw together a quick budget for your team and see how quickly that shoestring of $2M goes away. Don't forget ancillary things like insurance, paramedics at the games (keeps insurance costs lower), paying officials, stadium rentals and extra costs for things like lights, scoreboards etc.

[DoyleG]

Originally posted by CalgaryMJ
And you talk about keeping support staff to a minimum, but it is those support staff who are crucial to driving the game ahead. Unless you have a host of volunteers with specialized skills doing the marketing, the advertising (and no they aren't the same), sales and group sales, media relations and press releases and someone managing these areas to keep them in line and on budget all you've got is a touring senior team that won't attract much attention.

If teams were run that way, they would all be bankrupt. Only a small groups would be kept as full-time, the rest being hired as seasonal workers.

Originally posted by CalgaryMJ
The train is not much cheaper then then airfare and offers less convenience in terms on connections. I'd recommend you throw together a quick budget for your team and see how quickly that shoestring of $2M goes away.

Pay attention!

I can get a train from Toronto to Montreal for around $100. A flight would cost $600 not counting the charges that are put on at purchase time. Teams in Ontario and Quebec would rather take the train than fly, giving doing the latter is a wate of money. You seem to forget that junior teams and univeristy sides tend to do a lot of road travel.

Originally posted by CalgaryMJ
Don't forget ancillary things like insurance, paramedics at the games (keeps insurance costs lower), paying officials, stadium rentals and extra costs for things like lights, scoreboards etc.

Paramedics are the responsability of the city (since stadiums are city-controlled) so it's their responsibility. Lights and scoreboards etc. are part of renting the stadium.

[CalgaryMJ]

Originally posted by DoyleG


If teams were run that way, they would all be bankrupt. Only a small groups would be kept as full-time, the rest being hired as seasonal workers.

Didn't say they were full time. But as a seasonal/contract my hourly rate is going to be higher then a permanent employee to pay for the benefits you're not giving me so your savings won't be quite as high. Additionally, turnover means that each season the person taking over the reins has to start over in building relationships with the various groups they will be dealing with. This is why your top flight pro teams have these people on full time permanent.

Pay attention!

I can get a train from Toronto to Montreal for around $100. A flight would cost $600 not counting the charges that are put on at purchase time. Teams in Ontario and Quebec would rather take the train than fly, giving doing the latter is a wate of money. You seem to forget that junior teams and univeristy sides tend to do a lot of road travel.

Not sure who you're flying TO to Montreal as I can fly Calgary to TO or Montreal for less round trip, while your $100 VIA ticket is one way. I'm not sure the money you save is worth the extra time. Have pulled into town at 3:00AM on the team bus in University to try and get some sleep before an afternoon game in University way too many times. Not too conducive to good performances and nothing screams bush leagues like the chartered bus.

Paramedics are the responsability of the city (since stadiums are city-controlled) so it's their responsibility. Lights and scoreboards etc. are part of renting the stadium.

Not sure what city you live in (actually I do). When you rent a field from the city of Calgary you rent the field and sign a waiver. Everything else is at your expense. If the field has lights and a scoreboard (Foothills does not have either), the city charges you an additional fee to turn them on and then charges you a rate to cover utilities.

I'm all for the Canadian league concept. I just believe that your budget of $2M for the year is low and will end up putting out a product that fails to properly promote itself (big failing of the Storm this year) and ends up looking at best like a second rate product. If your teams budgeted for only a $2M loss in their first season I'd find that much more heartening about the direction of the proposal.

[DoyleG]

Originally posted by CalgaryMJ
Didn't say they were full time. But as a seasonal/contract my hourly rate is going to be higher then a permanent employee to pay for the benefits you're not giving me so your savings won't be quite as high. Additionally, turnover means that each season the person taking over the reins has to start over in building relationships with the various groups they will be dealing with. This is why your top flight pro teams have these people on full time permanent.

You forget that seasonal workers pay into EI but do not collect it. The permanent people would be in the high ranking positions, so the need to rebuild links isn't required.

Originally posted by CalgaryMJ
Not sure who you're flying TO to Montreal as I can fly Calgary to TO or Montreal for less round trip, while your $100 VIA ticket is one way. I'm not sure the money you save is worth the extra time. Have pulled into town at 3:00AM on the team bus in University to try and get some sleep before an afternoon game in University way too many times. Not too conducive to good performances and nothing screams bush leagues like the chartered bus.

A round trip plane or bus ticket is going to cost less than a round trip pplane ticket. The savings are worth it since the savings can be put to other things. Since games would be played with a least 5 days in between, the problems with bus or train travel wouldn't hurt a club. Canadians have more respect for bush league teams than a bunch of wealthy pros. Look at the CHL.

Originally posted by CalgaryMJ
I'm all for the Canadian league concept. I just believe that your budget of $2M for the year is low and will end up putting out a product that fails to properly promote itself (big failing of the Storm this year) and ends up looking at best like a second rate product. If your teams budgeted for only a $2M loss in their first season I'd find that much more heartening about the direction of the proposal.

The reason the Storm didn't live up to expectations was because it underestimated it's opponents. It's a jump from PDL to the A-League. The fact they were dumping players and coaches left and right didn't improve the teams performance. It's how you spend the money, not how much, that matters.

[CalgaryMJ]

Over the thread you seem to be contradicting yourself. First the five people I had listed on full time (sales, marketing, PR, sales manager and office manager) you said would bankrupt the team and then later say you're keeping a small core who don't need to relearn the job each year. Which is it (there's 150K riding on your answer)? Succesful CSL teams have these people - the Storm did not. While the Storm did underestimate their opposition, their promotion of the team and their games could at best be described as non-existent (also only dumped one coach).

As for your five days between games, I'm making a road trip to only play one game. As an owner, if I'm making a trip somewhere I'm going to want to link games so I have to make fewer trips ie. From Vancouver, play Calgary Friday night and then Edmonton Sunday afternoon. I'm still only chartering the bus (I control the schedule) for the weekend and have only one extra night in motels.

Don't understand your comments on seasonal workers at all. For your office staff exactly because of the lack of benefits (health, dental) you have to pay more or you end up getting what you pay minimum for (minimum experience and sometimes effort) which will end up costing you more then decent staff. Don't know how many times I've called an office to inquire about tickets and not gone due to rude or incompetent staff.

[DoyleG]

Originally posted by CalgaryMJ
Over the thread you seem to be contradicting yourself. First the five people I had listed on full time (sales, marketing, PR, sales manager and office manager) you said would bankrupt the team and then later say you're keeping a small core who don't need to relearn the job each year. Which is it (there's 150K riding on your answer)? Succesful CSL teams have these people - the Storm did not. While the Storm did underestimate their opposition, their promotion of the team and their games could at best be described as non-existent (also only dumped one coach).

You are the one that's contradicting yourself. If you even had a bit of a brain, you would have known that there would have been a permanent staff would be the one s in charge. It's becoming obvious that you are not thinking. Guess you haven't heard the term "word of mouth" have you?

Originally posted by CalgaryMJ
As for your five days between games, I'm making a road trip to only play one game. As an owner, if I'm making a trip somewhere I'm going to want to link games so I have to make fewer trips ie. From Vancouver, play Calgary Friday night and then Edmonton Sunday afternoon. I'm still only chartering the bus (I control the schedule) for the weekend and have only one extra night in motels.

Your the one who complains about a team being tired from such a trip, you are sure putting your foot in your mouth.

Originally posted by CalgaryMJ
Don't understand your comments on seasonal workers at all. For your office staff exactly because of the lack of benefits (health, dental) you have to pay more or you end up getting what you pay minimum for (minimum experience and sometimes effort) which will end up costing you more then decent staff. Don't know how many times I've called an office to inquire about tickets and not gone due to rude or incompetent staff.

I've worked short term contracts before. I've only gotten coverage for health and dental based on the lenght of my contract. When I buy tickets, I go to the window or a ticketmaster office.