[blech]

I was recently involved in a debate over the following situation:

**The goalie gets possession of the ball in a lawful manner. The goalie runs to the edge of the penalty box. Before leaving the penalty box, the goalie throws the ball into the air in front of him, and then without touching the ball again with his hands kicks the ball directly out of the air (let's say a yard or two outside the penalty box). To the extent that it matters, assume the goalie actually kicks the ball (as opposed to merely releasing it from his/her hands) in less than 6 seconds.

Before stating my view, let me ask you for yours: Can the goalie do this?

[Soccerfan20]

great thread!! I've always been wondering where the thin line is drawn. . . what if a goalie doesn't release in time. Is it just a professional curtasy to not call it a hand ball?

Can't wait to see the responses.

[pkCrouse]

Blech, maybe I'm missing something in your question, but I don't see an issue here. So long as the keeper releases the ball from his hands before the ball completely crosses out of the penalty area, he can do whatever else he wants after that. He can place the ball on the ground and dribble all day long if no opponent challenges him. He can punt it (or play it with any part of his body other than his hands/arms) in the air or after it hits the ground, in the penalty area or outside the penalty area. For that matter, he can simply drop the ball within the 6 seconds, turn his back and walk away from it. Makes no difference what he does after he releases the ball from his hands, so long as he doesn't pick it up again. Of course, as soon as he does release the ball, his opponents are free to challenge for it. Did I miss the issue in your scenario?

[GlennAA11]

I guess it sounds like you're asking about the very common situation where every spectator yells "handball ref!" when the GK punts the ball right at or maybe a little bit over the line. Generally speaking as long as the keeper isn't really going way over the line with the ball in his hands to punt the ball it would be trifling to call it a foul. If he's gone over and you think it might become an issue a quick warning to keep inside the area would probably be in order.

[kevbrunton]

Blech, there is nothing amiss in your main situation. As pk stated, he can do anything with it as long as the ball leaves his hands before it leaves the area.

In the situation where he does carry it slightly over the line, the way I generally call it as an AR is if the keeper has his arms extended preparing to kick it and his hands go slightly outside the area before he drops it, I'm not going to flag it -- as Glenn said, trifling.

If a significant part of his arms (say past the elbow) are outside the area before he releases the ball, I'll holler "Keeper watch your area." on the first occurrence. If he does it again, I'll flag it.

If his body leaves the area before he releases the ball, I'll flag it the first time.

[blech]

Thanks for the input thus far, and in advance for any additional comments. I'll add at this point that I was the one in the debate (at a referee clinic) arguing that the goalie did nothing wrong in this play. So, it's comforting to hear that this is correct and that I'm not off the wall on this. It's probably not fair for me to summarize the other person's argument (since I never totally understood it), but the argument was essentially that the ball remains in the goalie's "possession" until he completes his punt and that the entire punt, for some reason, must be completed inside the box. From my point of view, as long as the ball isn't handled outside of the box, and as long as the ball is either kicked or released to the ground within 6 seconds, there isn't any infraction.

Perhaps someone can clarify the "possession" rule for me as well, since this is one of the changes in the law from when I started playing and refereeing. From a technical point of view (since this is fractions of a second in any event), must the punt be completed before the 6 seconds expires or must the ball merely leave the goalie's hands? Also, can't the goalie after using most of the 6 seconds drop the ball on the ground (inside or outside of the box) and then dribble the ball for as long as he wants before kicking it up field or passing it to a teammate? There was also some suggestion that either (1) the dribbling of the ball after picking it up with the hands might constitute "possession" and thus was not permitted if the total time exceeded 6 seconds or (2) that the goalie must release the ball from his possession to another player and thus couldn't dribble it or otherwise play it after letting it leave his/her hands. These arguments were all news to me.


[Of course, I understand that we are talking about very technical points here and that the goalie will often be given some leeway on the first offense for stepping over the line, but our discussion last night was about what is the correct call].

[kevbrunton]

Originally posted by blech
The argument was essentially that the ball remains in the goalie's "possession" until he completes his punt and that the entire punt, for some reason, must be completed inside the box.

I can see the point here. Given that we wouldn't let an opponent attempt to play the ball after released from the hand before being kicked, there may be some merit to this arguement.

Here's the ATR info on this...

12.16 GOALKEEPER POSSESSION OF THE BALL
The goalkeeper is considered to be in possession of the ball while bouncing it on the ground or while throwing it into the air. Possession is given up if, while throwing the ball into the air, it is allowed to strike the ground.

Originally posted by blech
Perhaps someone can clarify the "possession" rule for me as well, since this is one of the changes in the law from when I started playing and refereeing. From a technical point of view (since this is fractions of a second in any event), must the punt be completed before the 6 seconds expires or must the ball merely leave the goalie's hands? Also, can't the goalie after using most of the 6 seconds drop the ball on the ground (inside or outside of the box) and then dribble the ball for as long as he wants before kicking it up field or passing it to a teammate? There was also some suggestion that either (1) the dribbling of the ball after picking it up with the hands might constitute "possession" and thus was not permitted if the total time exceeded 6 seconds or (2) that the goalie must release the ball from his possession to another player and thus couldn't dribble it or otherwise play it after letting it leave his/her hands. These arguments were all news to me.

First of all, the six second rule isn't a hard and fast time limit, so the time between release and kick would not matter (see point about reasonable effort from ATR 12.18 below).

Second of all, the six seconds is from the time the keeper has taken possession with his hands (see first sentence) until he has put it back into play. When he drops it to the ground as when he is going to play it with his feet, it is back in play -- at that point in time any opponent may challenge for the ball. So both your points (1) and (2) are not correct.

Here's the ATR info...

12.18 THE "SIX-SECOND" RULE
The goalkeeper has six seconds to release the ball into play once he has taken possession of the ball with his hands. However, this restriction is not intended to include time taken by the goalkeeper while gaining control of the ball or as a natural result of momentum. The referee should not count the seconds aloud or with hand motions. If the goalkeeper is making a reasonable effort to release the ball into play, the referee should give him the “benefit of the doubt.” Before penalizing a goalkeeper for violating this time limit, the referee should warn the goalkeeper about his actions and then should penalize the violation only if the goalkeeper continues to waste time or commits a comparable infringement again later in the match. Opposing players should not be permitted to attempt to prevent the goalkeeper from moving to release the ball into play.

[Alberto]

Originally posted by Soccerfan20
great thread!! I've always been wondering where the thin line is drawn. . . what if a goalie doesn't release in time. Is it just a professional curtesy to not call it a hand ball?

Can't wait to see the responses.

There was an identical thread before the Great Big Soccer Crash. First if the question is one of the keeper releasing the ball outside the penalty area it would be a trifling call. Remember, the law is there to prevent the keeper from gaining an advantage on 50/50 balls at the edge of the area. There the keepers use of hands outside of the area should clearly be whistled. You may want to warn the keeper to watch where he releases the ball. To call a DFK for this infraction is dubious and a gotcha call by a referee.

If it is a question of the keeper releasing the ball into play. Once the keeper releases the ball, he may not touch it again until it has been played by another player or it will result in an IFK to the opposing team at the point of the infraction (This means he cannot kick it or handle it again).


With regard to the six second rule, remember it is there to prevent time wasting by the keeper in situations where they are trying to preserve a result (sit on a lead or settle for a tie). Call it tight in those circumstances. The ATR posted by Kevbrunton should be what we strive for in these circumstances and do warn the keeper before you call it.

[whipple]

Originally posted by Alberto

If it is a question of the keeper releasing the ball into play. Once the keeper releases the ball, he may not touch it again until it has been played by another player or it will result in an IFK to the opposing team at the point of the infraction (This means he cannot kick it or handle it again).

Alberto,

We may want to clarify that after releasing the ball the keeper may not play it again with his hands until it has been played by another player. He may, however play it with his feet, kick, etc. after possession, but not after he restarts with a kick or goal kick because it would be a second touch.

Sherman

[soccernutter]

That is what I was wondering about what Albert said. From my understanding, a 'keeper has posession of the ball when controled by the hands (in general that means holding the ball) an no wistle for stopage is blown. Once the 'keeper drops (as opposed to bouncing) the ball to the ground, posession is lost. Since there has been no wistle for stopage, there is no restart, and thusly there can be no "second touch."