I agree here - unfortunately I was in the minority. I said on our team thread that I view him as a very good player, but not a great one. Much will depend on where and how we play him.
Well that is your opinion Ombak, but personally I'm a huge fan of Desailly. Part of that is inevitably a Milan bias, but neverthless he is a magnificent player and someone who's reputation has suffered in the last year and a half at Chelsea. I would place Desailly in the top 4 CBs of all time and in many ways would choose him along side Baresi in my all time XI. Personally I think that many of the old school defenders would have an absolute nightmare in dealing with the likes of Ronaldo. Desailly has pace, strength and brains. He will dominate players. While Moore and Bergomi are both great defenders they are going to get raped if they come up against any one with pace
I'm going to have to dispute the last of those three attributes - most defenders (especially those on this list) improve with age as their reading of a game improves - Desailly's game has gone downhill more than any other player in this draft so far, and watching him for Chelsea I find his positioning and anticipation to be sorely lacking. Whether this is down to diminished skills or a lack of motivation it has lowered his stock in my opinion. At his peak he was an excellent player, I just don't think the length of his peak years compares with others selected.
Whether he is top 10 or not is debateable, but I don't think Desailly is an outlandish pick by any means. His performances in the biggest games -- as Merengue points out -- have been huge for the most part. From the 92-93 Eurocup final for Marseille over Milan, then for Milan where he was moved to D-mid, and his displays at WC 1998 are text book.Here's a verbatim excerpt from http://www.soccer-europe.com/Profiles/Desailly.html "Desailly was expected to fill the role vacated by the legendary Dutch midfielder [Rikjaard]. Desailly quickly established himself in the first team and his crowning moment came in Milan's incredible 4-0 European Cup final victory over Barcelona. He single handedly destroyed one of the most potent midfields in European football with a chilling display of power and aggressive tackling. He capped off a marvelous performance by scoring Milan's fourth goal, running through a traumatised Barcelona defence before expertly curling the ball past Zubizaeretta. Dubbed 'The Rock' by the media soon after." The tail end of his career, which we are witnessing now at Chelsea, shouldn't count against him. Plus, many like to pair-up a highly technical CB (Beckenbauer) with a more physical CB...and they don't come any more physical than him. Ombak, do you think Desailly is not in the Bergomi's class?
I am not going to bother making a list of all the great players with pace that Bergomi and Moore successfully defended against. They were both very smart, disciplined, and tactically sound defenders with great marking skills, (is it correct to say 'marking' in English? I always use that word) and that is why we thought they'd compliment each other perfectly.
Well lanman he was at the top of the world game for 10 years 93-03. Last season he was still excellent when he could be bothered, it was only in the little games where he looked poor. Let us not forget as well that he is still captain of France, the European Champions and one of the best sides in the world. He may be living on reputation at the moment but part of his problem has been the superb emergence of Gallas and Terry, they have been so good as to make him look worse. As for pace, neither Bergomi or Moore ever came up against the pace of Ronaldo when he first emerged. It doesn't matter how you read the game against him, he will go straight past you.
Using that argument, there is not one defender in the world who is good enough for any of us to pick, because which of yesterday's or today's defenders would be able to stop the young ronaldo at full speed? To pick two of today's best, do you think Nesta or Samuel could stop a young Ronaldo? Nobody could completely stop Ronaldo on his best day. Just like nobody could stop Maradona or Pele or Eusebio of Puskas or Muller on their best day, each for different reasons. That is why they are the best strikers. But I think the Moore/Bergomi tandem has as good a chance as any to defend Ronaldo reasonably well. They are two extremely smart and disciplined players, and I think (hypotetically speaking) that we could come up with a scheme to try to keep him from getting the ball where he wants it. Anyhow, our defense is not finished yet. And besides, (I cannot resist to talk a little smack ), I think the other teams should be worried about stopping our offense, rather than bring up concerns about our defense.
^^ This is why we wanted him to partner Baresi.I don't see how people can put Bergomi above Desailly?? based on what exactly? People in such a thread should surely have more knowledge about his career then to judge him off his last year or so at Chelsea? Of the type of tooth and nails defender that Desailly is will not get better with age! Only defenders who were never fast in the first place get better with age like a 36 year old Blanc etc. People like Keane, Davids, Desailly will all get worse and worse as they grow older because they are players that get stuck in. Desailly has neer and will never be the stand off-reader type and for that reason it would be wise for him to retire this summer. I notice people don't blight Mattheus for his awful period trying to play sweeper yet chastise Desailly??? why is that. As tpmamzembe says the classical pairing is the skilled and timely tackler with the rough and tough, rock solid CB beside him. I'm not in favour of two elegant CB's playing together - who will take care of the menacing CF?? the uncompromising bully type of #9...I'd love to see Baresi or Moore try and stop a Duncan Ferguson or a Oliver Bierhoff maybe I wouldn't...it wouldn't be a pretty sight... I have to agree with comme on the fact that there is a huge differenc3e between reading the game like a Grandmaster chess player and actually being able to stop what you are confronted with even if you have forseen the upcoming play I don't believe that the old school classic elegant sweeper of yore could handle a primed Ronaldo or Henry thundering at or thru them..they need the support of a stronger and faster CB to shepard such a player into the position where they can make the tackle. Individually Desailly is no technician and has no 'skill' to mention but as part of a unit this guy is a star. He is the dustpan - the elegant sweeper is the brush! We knew (team D) that if we took Desailly yesterday come's team would take Neeskens today or on Monday..and in the final picture I do feel that Neeskens offers a team more, but we are sad to see Desailly go. Back to the drawing board.
Well luckily I think that Desailly is the best man to stop Ronaldo, I would have loved to have seen them play in the 98 final but sadly we all know what happened to Ronaldo there. Of the modern players I would choose Campbell and Ferdinand to stop Ronaldo, they both have the pace and power to compete with him physically. Also I presume you are going to play Bergomi at RB, he is best suited to a three man defence but given the constraints of this excercise that is not possible. BTW DS, how were you so sure we would take Desailly or Neeskens? I must say if you had lined up with Maldini, Baresi, Desailly, Santos and Cruyff I would have been extremely unhappy. As it is Neeskens is still a great pick, but not quite the same.
If this is your criteria then you shouldn't elect ANY old-school types to an all-time team. Anyone from the 50s and 60s would have a hard time with anyone from the 90s when it comes to pace, speed, physical play. You have to extrapolate the player's qualities, imagine how he would've developed in an environment just as competitive.
Your needs and our needs are remarkably similar at this moment in time!! We've mentioned Desailly to each other in threads regarding all time 11's and if you're not playing Beckenbaur in midfield Neeskens is the man for the job. I'm still wondering whatyou'll do with Beck's btw. There was no way Neeskens was going to last much longer and so I wanted him this pick to make our midfield superflous. Almost had my actual all-time backline in place, lol, you Milanista's are so damn loyal
I tend to believe it works best if you compliment your old school player with someone more modern...unless you're fortunate enough to find old schoolers who were ahead of their time in regards to pace, power and height.
The point was not that noone can ever hope to stop Ronaldo, it was that on his best day he could blow by even those defenders that were capable of dealing with him. He'd not just outrun anyone, but bump off of them too. Again, it's unfair to base it all on strentgh and physical attributes as the game was completely different in the 50s. Those players did not go through the rigorous physical training players today go through and they did not have the same speed, strength etc.
Saying that it's a good idea to compliment an old-schooler with a more recent player is nonsense. It's an all-time draft, pick the best players. Yes, the criteria are subjective, but the idea that a more recent players physical characteristics compliment an older player simply indicate that you are not willing to concede that the older player, having developed in a different football world, wouldn't have had an opportunity to become as strong and fast as the current guys, and you feel you need to compensate for his "slowness" or lack of pace. This should not be the case, we shouldn't be compensating for these characteristics which are the result of a more athletic approach to the game.
Well, we could theoretically play a type of four man back which would technically be legal. We are still debating it. But I think Bergomi will be effective either at the lateral or as stopper alongside the sweeper Moore. Actually, in our private discussion I did bring up Desailly, along with other 'tough guy' choices who are still available, but even if your team hadn't picked him I don't think we'd have gone in that direction. And I should say Bergomi was an elegant player but he was also tough. And I recall he was very effective when paired with a certain skilled player of similar characteristics to Moore. (A player who I won't mention because he is somebody who could still be picked. Maybe I blew it already by saying this much, but hell, this is all just for discussion's sake anyway.).
But then you are moving into the realms of make believe and not using the reality you're presented with. A physical specimen is a physical specimen. Jesse Owens would be a top class striker in regards to pace even in today's game and he ran in what? the 1936 Olympics? A certain spanish winger of the 50's would match todays guys for pace and so would Djalma, Pele and a whole host of others..There is no way that Moore or Baresi would ever get 'faster' outside of using steroids. There are defenders just as slow as they were out there today..the only thing seperating them is sublime ability! I don't see anything at all wrong with complimenting one persons strengths with anothers, regardless of era..it just so happened that you could get away with not being so fast in older times and not have to worry about a Jesse Owens or other certain speedsters coming at you in every game. In todays game however a flying striker will give any defender trouble and only those with power, pace and ability can hope to stop them in direct confrontation...a skilled but slower defender would need some help to shepard the man, I don't see that as a big deal. I like that element of this draft alot. There's no point relying on fantasy when you're faced with the very real prospect of coming up against a striker who has no regard or interest in how excellent your footballing brain is but is trying to run you and test your legs at every opportunity is there? Even if your Baresi can stop this kind of striker some of the time he's going to exhaust himself and eventually be horrible exposed..so why not hire a minder (rough and tough CB) to help the guy out? I think even the Italian defenders of the 80's would be roasted for all their dirty tricks and robust play there is only one counter for out and out speed...and that's to have some yourself..and it is few and far between that the older school guys have that combination..there are a few...but they are rare..but that's all part of the fun.
You have to draw the line somewhere DS. Sure, some guys are naturally fast or strong. But most aren't. Ronaldo became the unstoppable force he was in 97. He wasn't born that way. So sure, it's reasonable to say "this defender in the 30s relied more on anticipation than speed" but you can't really compare him speedwise anyways to anyone today. Otherwise you may as well pick someone who's fast and smart and someone who's super-fast and can cover his mistakes, and both will be above-average players from the 90s, not all time greats. I realize I'm beating a dead-horse here, but you're saying Ronaldo would take advantage of the slowness of past defenders. That's like saying a tank would take advantage of a horse's lack of armor. All-time greats are great because they are intelligent - they have a high soccer IQ. Not because they are faster than someone 20 years ago, or stronger etc. I think my point is clear and we agree to disagree so I'll just stop beating the poor dead horse already.
The game is not simply about pace though. Puskas would be effective in any era, certain defenders wouldn't (not yours in particular). That is because defence is reactive while attack is proactive. For that reason many old school defenders would struggle to cope with modern day attackers, no matter how good they were the game has changed. The particular difference in the evolution of the game has been in defending. Of course intelligence is still the most important criteria but there are attributes that old school players lack. This was whole point of a thread DS started a couple of months back, a game between and al time XI and a modern day XI.
Ombak, I said that I personally believe Ronaldo96-97 is the only player I've ever seen in my lifetime that I believe was uncontainable. You'll get no arguements from me about that one. How can one not appreciate the sublime skills of some of the older school defenders? I'm certainly not disputing that either, it's often said that Moore's tackle in '70 world cup against an unmaed Brazilian was the best timed tackle ever. I'm not going to argue against that. I'm just saying that these guys need to be paired with someone else so that as a pairing they can take on all comers or at the very least contain them until help arrives. I don't see the point of putting unnecessary stress on a defence in regards to stopping an extremely fast and tricky attacking ..lets say #9 - for arguements sake - when the problem needn't have arisen if someone was put in place in the backline who could at least keep up with the guy stride for stride. That is why in my ideal world I'd partner Baresi, a cool, composed, supreme reader, tackler and controller of a game with a Desailly a forceful, pacey, powerful, aggresive do or die type. Take away Desailly's Pace and power and he wouldn't even be in this draft, because we all know his idea of reading the game is going out and 'dealing' with trouble' but with his power and pace he cannot be ignored. I don't care how unrefined or rough around the edges his style is he has big part to play in containing the oppositions fastest and most powerful forward. I couldn't care less which era this defender comes from as long as he has attributes neccesary to do the job I want him to do. I can name 2unpicked guys from the 50's who would not lose stride on most of todays forwards and they'd be serious considerations for our team if others agree on them. So I don't buy the 'old timers are at an instant disadvantage' thing I just believe that type of player was very, very rare back then is all.
There was a piece with Michael Robinson in a recent magazine in England where he said Barcelona having Ronaldo was like them having Robocop playing up front and I couldn't agree more - for two or three years prior to the injuries he was unquestionably the greatest player ever - only Maradona in the late 80's/ early 90's for Napoli was anywhere close to him. I feel privileged to have watched him play and pity anyone who never witnessed him in full flight prior to his injuries. Ultimately this draft comes down to how we judge players - over a career or at their peak. However, this discussion can wait until the end of the draft as it may influence future choices.
Thanks. I have not been visiting BigSoccer that much, and that is why I didn't join. I am really enjoying this thread, and it is interesting to see the different philosophies and how the different teams are coming together. I'd be interested also to know how the participants break down in terms of nationality and age, because it seems like the panels have been succesful in incorporating players from different nationalities and different eras. I am following the discussion with interest, but I will wait until the rosters are complete before offering my amateur assesment again. Good luck and keep up the good effort.
Team Re-cap after 7th Round: TEAM A : Pele, Moore, Eusebio, Didi, Rikjaard, Matthews, Bergomi TEAM B : Maradona, Passarella, G.Muller, VanBasten, Deschamps, Breitner, Cafu TEAM C : DiStefano, Garrincha, Platini, Fachetti, Mattaus, Ronaldo, Varela TEAM D : Cryuff, Baresi, Dj.Santos, Maldini, Zico, Gullit, Neeskens TEAM E : Beckenbauer, Puskas, Best, Zidane, Bozsik, R.Carlos, Desailly There are probably be no more than 2 more striker selections left. I doubt that any team will play with 3 out and out attackers; so depending on how Team A chooses to use Pele, and whether Team D chooses to use Gullit as lone striker with Cryuff and Zico right behind him (like Ronaldo and Rivaldo-Ronaldinho WC'02) -- there might be no more strikers taken at all! There are two strikers that I am amazed are not on the board; one of which if he doesn't make it there should be an inquiry. Think of all the other great goal getters that are not going to make it.....
What stands out in my opinion is that team B are unique and the other 4teams have a team with whom they almost have a race against time to get the same players. team A vs. team C team D vs. team E I think the following weeks will determine just how greatly each team values the remainding positions they have left to fill and also peoples evaluation of some players vying for the same spot on two teams. I was wondering when the draft would get tactical..I think this week will be the first fully fledged tactitical assualt.