[arkjayback]

I am beginning to wonder if BigSoccer is where this type of thinking presides, or if all US fans have driven themselves so crazy that they can't even think straight any more.

Any US player HAS to go to Europe to prove himself. It is readily assumed that any MLS player will be a liability against top level talent. He has to go to Europe to improve and play against better talent. Even though lately, anywhere for 3 to 6 of the starters on the US are from MLS, its still not good enough. MLS has more and more and more international caliber players each season, but its players are never considered good enough by its country's own fans.

Holden has been able to play on one of the league's top teams for one of the league's best coaches as well as get plenty of international experience through playing in the CONCACAF Champions League. Chris Rolfe has been able to recover from some rough years and be one of the best players for Chicago who routinely battled Mexican clubs in the SuperLiga. Yet people are saying "he should have gone to Europe years ago." As if that means anything.

BUT

The players who not only go to Europe, but excel in Europe, are constantly criticized and doubted by "fans." Dempsey plays on the best team of any US field player, Cherundolo has locked down his spot in one of the best leagues in the world for over a decade and is even the captain, Bocanegra has been a consistent starter for years now and has been captain at times, and Michael Bradley has forced his way into the starting lineup in two of the best leagues in the world. Yet these are the 4 most criticzed players every single time they step onto the field for the US (other than whoever is manning the left back position at that time). Hell, we even had someone claim that Guzan is better than Howard. wtf

Then, if players go to Europe, they're automatically better than whoever else is out there. Edu was labeled as the US's next dominant midfielder and people are seriously calling for Tracy to get called up.

BUT

When a player does something in MLS, they're automatically believed to better than their European counterparts. This one gets me the most. A player has to go to Europe to prove himself, but he can supplant a proven veteran who has been in Europe for years. Chad Marshall, Ricardo Clark, and Stuart Holden have proven themselves numerous times, but its when fans call for lesser players that gets me.

Omar Gonzalez was stellar as a rookie, but someone actually thinks he's better than Demerit, Goodson, and Marshall. People wanted to see Marvell Wynne last year instead of Stevie. Now Chris Pontius is a better option than Clint Dempsey? Are you kidding me? And of course we have Robbie Findley who goes on a hot streak and is expected to replicated everything Davies did.

BUT

Fans won't acknowledge what lesser-known players do once they get to Europe: Goodson locking down a starting spot in Norway, Mix as an 18 year old making his way into the rotation for a Champions League qualifier, Eddie Johnson given plenty of playing time for Cardiff and being part of the rotation at a good EPL club, Jeremiah White being a consistent starter in Denmark, Bedoya becoming a starter in Sweden, etc. It never ends.


Even with everything Landon Donovan has done for the national team, people still won't acknowledge how good he is unless he goes to Europe and scores dozens of goals.

These contradicitions are ridiculous.

[cleansheetbsc]

1. day-in, day-out the environment in an average Euro club team is more challenging. Teams do not have artificial roster barriers like MLS with number of players and salary caps. Each club sets their own and are usually deeper.

2. We don't push them to Europe. When an MLS player says "I am going to Europe to prove myself," they are not going to Europe to prove themself. They are going there to make far more money than MLS was offering. Case closed. If MLS paid more any player going to Scandanavia or BL2 would stay in MLS in a heartbeat.

[arkjayback]

Originally Posted by cleansheetbsc

1. day-in, day-out the environment in an average Euro club team is more challenging. Teams do not have artificial roster barriers like MLS with number of players and salary caps. Each club sets their own and are usually deeper.

2. We don't push them to Europe. When an MLS player says "I am going to Europe to prove myself," they are not going to Europe to prove themself. They are going there to make far more money than MLS was offering. Case closed. If MLS paid more any player going to Scandanavia or BL2 would stay in MLS in a heartbeat.

Found another perfect post:

Originally Posted by YankBastard

There's another player that should've GTFO from MLS a few years ago to up his career.

speaking of Justin Mapp

[arkjayback]

Originally Posted by cleansheetbsc

1. day-in, day-out the environment in an average Euro club team is more challenging. Teams do not have artificial roster barriers like MLS with number of players and salary caps. Each club sets their own and are usually deeper.

2. We don't push them to Europe. When an MLS player says "I am going to Europe to prove myself," they are not going to Europe to prove themself. They are going there to make far more money than MLS was offering. Case closed. If MLS paid more any player going to Scandanavia or BL2 would stay in MLS in a heartbeat.

Case closed? I'm talking about the perspective of fans, not the players. We all know some of them can get paid better in Europe, but that's not why fans clamor for them to leave.

[cleansheetbsc]

Originally Posted by arkjayback

Case closed? I'm talking about the perspective of fans, not the players. We all know some of them can get paid better in Europe, but that's not why fans clamor for them to leave.

Fans clamor for them to leave was in #1 of my post, and I guess its cooler to play pickup soccer wearing the Dempsey Fulham jersey rather than a Dempsey Revs jersey.

What player took a pay cut to go from MLS to Europe?

[Mullet&Talon]

I think a hypothetical situation is in order. I

If we were Italy, and we were basketball fans, we would want Giuseppe to leave the comforts of Rome and go to Memphis to play in the NBA. We want our guy to play at the top level in the world. That's the NBA.

In truth we are soccer fans. We want our guys to play at the top level of the world. That is La Liga, Serie A, and the EPL ... and the Champions League. Right now that means Gooch, Dempsey and Spector. With the injured Gooch the only one with the actual possibility (remote and unlikely though it may be) to play in the Champions League.

Yes, they play nice soccer in the Bundesliga, and perhaps so in name your Scandanavian country. But these aren't the big leagues. These are minor leagues. Maybe the Bundesliga will return to the glory it once had, but it ain't there right now.

Until the USMNT is stocked with players plying their trade at Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Sevilla, Valencia, Milan, Inter, Roma, Juventus ... and I'll throw you the Bayern Munich bone ... fans will be screaming for name your favorite player to go to Europe and prove themselves. I don't think there is anything unusual or wrong about this.

I love MLS, but I won't compare the best of MLS to anything in the Champions League. Hell, we can't even beat Mexican clubs.

[Clint Eastwood]

I'm a card-carrying Eurosnob. Our elite players should all be challenging themselves in Europe. Yes, there's an inherent risk that comes with that. You can show up and not get much playing time. That's an incentive to improve. Players like Gooch, Adu, and Altidore need to improve and force their way into these squads. There's not some vast conspiracy to keep Americans from getting playing time. If you show up to a team and the coach believes that you can help them win......he'll play you.

Now, MLS should NOT be losing players to Scandinavia, Belgium, Austria, etc. These non-elite players, fringe nats.........like Chris Rolfe and Marcus Tracy aren't going to leagues that are significantly better than MLS. When Chad Marshall was a free agent this past off-season, the only serious Euro offer he got was from Mainz in BundII. (and a rerportedly lowball one at that). So he decided to re-up with Columbus, and despite being a Eurosnob.....I agree with that decision. The top of BundII might better than MLS, but the league as a whole isn't. So if you're Kenny Cooper you go in the hope that your team will be promoted to the Bundesliga. I'm fine with that either way..

I was thinking something the other day. I wonder what percentage of Yanks that make the trip to Europe are single? If you're single it's easy to uproot, and move wherever you want. I believe it would be a hefty percentage. When you're married (with or without kids).........it's not so easy. Donovan was clearly reluctant to move to Europe because of his wife's career (doesn't have that problem now).........and I'm sure there are a lot of similar circumstances.

[kokoplus10]

The biggest problem I have with our national team is consistency.

So why are we so inconsistent?

1. Bench Warmers: Some of our National Team players are spending too much time on the bench in Europe. It's no surprise that a guy like Jozy can be stellar one day and useless the next. He's not seeing regular minutes.

2. MLS.

a. The way MLS is structured (pay-wise, and with the playoff system) means that there is very little pressure on the players week-in and week-out to produce a result compared to their European counterparts.

b. MLS simply isn't on the same page (talent-wise) with the top European leagues.

c. The physical nature of MLS compared to the rest of the world, and you see our MLS guys being carded far too often in major tournaments.

d. The MLS schedule frequently conflicts with the international calendar, which can often leave our squad depleted. We simply cannot afford that, which also leads us to...

3. Injuries. An injury to any one of our starting 11 severely unbalances this team. We need to be 2-3 players deep at each position with guys who are starting in top leagues in Europe.

[Wessoman]

Originally Posted by Clint Eastwood

I'm a card-carrying Eurosnob. Our elite players should all be challenging themselves in Europe. Yes, there's an inherent risk that comes with that. You can show up and not get much playing time. That's an incentive to improve. Players like Gooch, Adu, and Altidore need to improve and force their way into these squads. There's not some vast conspiracy to keep Americans from getting playing time. If you show up to a team and the coach believes that you can help them win......he'll play you.

Now, MLS should NOT be losing players to Scandinavia, Belgium, Austria, etc. These non-elite players, fringe nats.........like Chris Rolfe and Marcus Tracy aren't going to leagues that are significantly better than MLS. When Chad Marshall was a free agent this past off-season, the only serious Euro offer he got was from Mainz in BundII. (and a rerportedly lowball one at that). So he decided to re-up with Columbus, and despite being a Eurosnob.....I agree with that decision. The top of BundII might better than MLS, but the league as a whole isn't. So if you're Kenny Cooper you go in the hope that your team will be promoted to the Bundesliga. I'm fine with that either way..

I say this--If Onyewu played in the MLS instead of Belgium, he never goes to Milan. The transfer was smooth.

And I don't agree with the MLS being "Better" than Belgium or Denmark. For one, while the MLS as far as quality is a better league than either the Jupiler or the Superligaen, the fact remains that both leagues have more fixtures, and both leagues offer more pressure for players to make starting lineups. Also, they follow the FIFA calendar. Furthermore, playing in Europe makes it easier to be scouted by larger clubs. In short, it's leaving the better quality MLS for a league that keeps you in shape, gives you a better paycheck, and has a higher chance of reward.

That said, playing domestically also has huge advantages of playing internationally, where scouting really does play a part. When Euro teams buy Yank players, it's never because of individual effort in the MLS, it's always because good MLS play -> Capped by USA -> Good performances by USA player against good teams -> Signed by big Euro team.

I think what the MLS truly needs to do is start their front office whirring and get loan deals made up. It shouldn't be just Beckham and Blanco playing in the offseason, and in the past a lot of good MLS players played in Europe in offseason loans (Olsen, McBride, Wynalda, etc.). I think there should be far more offseason play to lower division European teams. This filters out the MLS-It makes sure that the elite MLS players go to good clubs in Europe, but keeps the marquee players home. For example, Cooper should have never gone to 2nd Bundesliga, Cooper was a draw at home. A loan would have been more prudent-If Cooper tore up at 1860 Munich he could have gone to bigger things. But now, he's kinda stuck there. Doesn't help the US or the player whatsoever.

[arkjayback]

I wasn't thinking too much about MLS when I started this thread. It just kinda drifted in there.

My main point is that we all say that our best players should challenge themselves in Europe. Yet, for those who have met that challenge the best, its still not good enough. Somehow, Bocanegra, Bradley, Cherundolo, and Dempsey are the most criticized players on the team.