[eissman]

Forgive me if this have been started already, I tried to find it and only discovered last year's thread of the same title.

So, it is high time to start this one, in light of all the striker debate recently.


==============
2009-2010 Season
==============

Louis Van Gaal has utilized 3 formations thus far this season:

4-4-2 (diamond)
4-3-3 (classic Dutch system)
3-4-3 (variation of above)


Most recent and successful formations have been the 4-3-3 including the following:

...................................Butt.........................................
.................................................................................
Lahm...........Van Buyten.......Babstuber.......Pranjic/Braafheid
.................................................................................
...............Müller........Tymoschuk.......Schweinsteiger.......
.................................................................................
Robben...............................................................Ribery
.................................Olic/Gomez.................................



*******Options******

GK: Rensing, Kraft

Backs: Breno, Demichelis, Lell, Görlitz

Midfield: Von Bommel, Ottl, Ailtontop, Sosa, Baumjohann,

Forwards: Toni, Klose

[eissman]

The debate recently has been over the use of Olic as the main target versus the use of Gomez. All of this is even possible due to the absense of both Luca Toni and Miroslav Klose, both recovering from injury.

LvG clearly has a concept of what he expects from a striker in a 4-3-3 formation, and while Gomez was doing his part in the 4-4-2 diamond formation earlier used when Bayern had neither Arjen Robben (newly signed) and Franck Ribery (recovering at the time) at their immediate disposal in midfield, it is clear that LvG expects something different from that position in the newly instated 4-3-3 formation.

In my time as a coach at a much lower level than that we are discussing, I have utilized both systems of play. While a tall target is ideal in the 2 man forward line, the reason it becomes more conducive is that the midfield is able to be more defensively stable with a 4 man formation (diamond or otherwise). Where it becomes less conducive is when you take a defensive piece of the midfield puzzle and put it in the forward line. This is where the qualities necessary to play the 'target' forward in a 4-3-3 system become redefined. As the midfield is now more difficult to defind, the forwards are asked to put more immediate pressure on the ball in the oppositions backline, particularly the central forward who is responsible for two CB's.

Here is where Gomez is not as conducive in my opinion as Olic. Barring the sole purpose of the striker - which is the simply score goals - Olic's workrate at high-pressuring the backline of the opposition when they have possession is essential to the midfield being able to defend properly, as the other two forwards have to collapse towards the middle from the wings.

The OTHER and equally as important attribute that needs to occur is the main central or target forward at times will simply need to keep the ball 'in play', meaning out of possession of the opposition and continuing the play anyway possible. This is where Olic has a distinct advantage over Gomez.

This is a feature of the attack I think gets overlooked... Olic has the ability to extend an attack with his workrate, whereas Gomez not so much. I have found this to be beneficial in my own 4-3-3 system I employ with my current team... the more athletic striker who may be less polished often times finds themselves on the pitch when we score simply because they are able to help keep an attack alive and not concede it to the opposition.

[shealygg]

Hmmmmm......must be a "teacher workday" today....

[Hendrik]

Will be interesting to see what LvG does when MvB returns in two or three weeks. The most likely outcome imo is that he drops the disappointing Tymoshchuk, but then the question remains whether two box-to-box midfielders like MvB and Schweini can protect the backline.

The other option, Tymo-MvB-Schweini is probably too defensive minded against most Bundesliga teams, especially considering Robben and Ribery are no great goal scorers either. Plus we know from his previous clubs that LvG prefers to play a goal scoring AM (not necessarily a 10) behind the front 3.

[Matakos]

Great thread!I think it is a very good idea, as there was very much discussion in the other threads about tactics.

To the point, actually the competion in our team is very strong this year which is exciting.There are many debates about the #9 position.Also, MvB's return from injury will heat up further discussions as to which players will constitute the 3 man mindfield.At the LB spot there is the fight between Braafheid and Pranjic.Each gives us different options but, to be honest neither has been very impressive so far.And finally there is also Demichelis who will sooner or later return to fitness.He will not be guaranted a starting spot in my opinion but will be a major contender for a CB spot.
All in all, we have a stronger squad this year.We have more options and depth hence all these debates about the starting 11.

[nekkibasara]

Originally Posted by Hendrik

The other option, Tymo-MvB-Schweini is probably too defensive minded against most Bundesliga teams, especially considering Robben and Ribery are no great goal scorers either. Plus we know from his previous clubs that LvG prefers to play a goal scoring AM (not necessarily a 10) behind the front 3.

I think this would be the smarter midfield to send out against top European sides allowing us to control the midfield with 3 hard tacklers, and spring counters using the pace of Robbery down the wings.

In the Bundesliga, for most matches, we can get away with MvB, Schweini and Muller.

I would play:

Bundesliga (against all but the top tear teams):

-----------------Butt-------------------
Lahm---van Buyten---Badstuber---Pranjic
--------van Bommel---Schweini---------
----------------Mueller-----------------
Robben----------Gomez-----------Ribery

Champions League:

----------------Butt-------------------
Lahm---van Buyten---Badstuber---Pranjic
--------------Demichelis----------------
--------v. Bommel---Schweini-----------
Robben---------Gomez------------Ribery

Bring Mueller in the 2nd half for Schweini to add a little extra to our attack.

I think our best option at DM is still Martin Demichelis. He is much better at positioning and tackling than Tymo, and no matter what he says that is his best position. We all know that the only reason he refuses to play there is that he wont make the Argentinian NT as a DM.

I think a central defense of DvB and Badstuber, with Demichelis playing as a out and out destroyer in front of them would be formidable. This would allow MvB and Schweini or Mueller to push up into the attack more, and work more on possession. Our central midfield would be extremely difficult to break down, and would have 2 players who are good at distribution and long passes. We could be devastating on the counter by allowing Robbery to have nearly 0 defensive duties in this case.

[shealygg]

Originally Posted by nekkibasara

I think our best option at DM is still Martin Demichelis. He is much better at positioning and tackling than Tymo, and no matter what he says that is his best position. We all know that the only reason he refuses to play there is that he wont make the Argentinian NT as a DM.

Not so sure about that right now....they seem to be hurting pretty badly ATM!!

[eissman]

Originally Posted by nekkibasara

I think our best option at DM is still Martin Demichelis. He is much better at positioning and tackling than Tymo, and no matter what he says that is his best position. We all know that the only reason he refuses to play there is that he wont make the Argentinian NT as a DM.

I think a central defense of DvB and Badstuber, with Demichelis playing as a out and out destroyer in front of them would be formidable. This would allow MvB and Schweini or Mueller to push up into the attack more, and work more on possession. Our central midfield would be extremely difficult to break down, and would have 2 players who are good at distribution and long passes. We could be devastating on the counter by allowing Robbery to have nearly 0 defensive duties in this case.

Fully agree. I LOVED Demichelis as a DM for Bayern in the past. He was always successful there. I believe as well that DM is in fact his best position at Bayern.

[eissman]

I wish Bayern could shore up a true Left Back as well sometime soon. The reason we see less from Ribery has a bit to do with his still finding his match fitness, but realistically it has a LOT to do with no Philip Lahm behind him at LB. I like the move of Lahm to RB, BUT the understanding between Ribery and Lahm was magic on the left.

So far neither Pranjic or Braafheid have panned out. That we know. Neither seem inclined to attack and neither can serve their own supper!

If bringing Mark Von Bommel back into the starting XI and using Demichelis as another DM were in fact something that happened this season, then I would love to take Schweinsteiger out of that attacking midfield role and put him at LB. Craziness, I know, but I remember him having some success there in the past. This ISN'T at all saying he isn't performing in midfield and thus should move... to the contrary... we are getting some consistancy it seems from Schweinsteiger. But out of all the other choices we have at LB on the roster, I would like to see how he fits in. He knows how to play wide left, as he did so much under Hitzfeld, and he has played LB under Magath when needed.

A backline and midfield could look like this:
(Bundesliga)
.........................Butt......................
Lahm.....Van Buyten.....Babstuber....Schweini
..............Von Bommel...Demichelis......
.......................Mueller....................


or even:
(Champions League)
.........................Butt......................
Lahm.....Van Buyten.....Babstuber....Schweini
..............Tymoschuk...Demichelis......
.....................Von Bommel..............


I am not one to give up on new signings, but after a point, one must cut your losses and move on. I think Tymoschuk has shown more promise than Pranjic/Braafheid, but I would prefer to see more. I think Tymo is also another signing that was 'pre LvG', much like Gomez, so that potentially could be working against him when MVB returns to full fitness.

Again, I would LOVE to see Demichelis there.

[eissman]

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showp...6&postcount=26


Give this little nugget... that LvG will try Tymo at RB upon MVB's return to the lineup... that puts a whole new twist on this lineup now.


VERY VERY VERY interesting. I like how this coach thinks!


.........................Butt......................
Tymo.....Van Buyten.....Babstuber......Lahm
.............Von Bommel...Schweini......
.......................Mueller....................
Robben.......................................Ribery
................Olic/Klose/Gomez.............

or

.........................Butt......................
Tymo.....Van Buyten.....Babstuber......Lahm
.....................Demichelis..................
............Von Bommel...Schweini......
Robben.......................................Ribery
.......................Mueller....................