[KiaFan]

More school: Obama would curtail summer vacation

By LIBBY QUAID, AP Education Writer
Sun Sep 27, 3:29 pm ET

WASHINGTON – Students beware: The summer vacation you just enjoyed could be sharply curtailed if President Barack Obama gets his way.

Obama says American kids spend too little time in school, putting them at a disadvantage with other students around the globe.

"Now, I know longer school days and school years are not wildly popular ideas," the president said earlier this year. "Not with Malia and Sasha, not in my family, and probably not in yours. But the challenges of a new century demand more time in the classroom."

[...]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090927/...us_more_school

[Auriaprottu]

This gets brought up about every half generation.

1) I didn't think much of this idea as a child, but I'm certain it wouldn't hurt today's little animals. Not in secondary anymore, but my question would be "Are educators going to be paid for this extra time? If so, no problem. If not, our president might want to consider retracting this idea in a way that does not cause this nation's detractors to complain about his ideas.

2) The old quotes about lagging behind some other developed nations in math and science is tiring. The point of all this American dreaming is to create an environment where we don't have to work so hard. That ought to include school (as job training, anyhow). At what point does the USA stop trying to compete scorewise with the countries that do not try to educate every kid the same way for 12 school years?

[Belgian guy]

Originally Posted by Auriaprottu

This gets brought up about every half generation.

1) I didn't think much of this idea as a child, but I'm certain it wouldn't hurt today's little animals. Not in secondary anymore, but my question would be "Are educators going to be paid for this extra time? If so, no problem. If not, our president might want to consider retracting this idea in a way that does not cause this nation's detractors to complain about his ideas.

2) The old quotes about lagging behind some other developed nations in math and science is tiring. The point of all this American dreaming is to create an environment where we don't have to work so hard. That ought to include school (as job training, anyhow). At what point does the USA stop trying to compete scorewise with the countries that do not try to educate every kid the same way for 12 school years?

How do you figure that? Belgian schools treat every child exactly the same, there's hardly even a private school alternative in place, not counting a few exceptions.

[Auriaprottu]

Originally Posted by Belgian guy

How do you figure that? Belgian schools treat every child exactly the same, there's hardly even a private school alternative in place, not counting a few exceptions.

BG, I mean that the USA sends students to school for 12 years with each student receiving pretty much the same basic instruction. I'm not sure every developed nation does it this way, even tho Belgium obviously does. I was referring to nations that career-track students beyond a certain grade and do not train them for professions if their scores aren't at a certain level. We test everyone, including students who aren't ever going to accomplish much, but I doubt that every nation does this.

[DoctorJones24]

Originally Posted by Auriaprottu

BG, I mean that the USA sends students to school for 12 years with each student receiving pretty much the same basic instruction. I'm not sure every developed nation does it this way, even tho Belgium obviously does. I was referring to nations that career-track students beyond a certain grade and do not train them for professions if their scores aren't at a certain level. We test everyone, including students who aren't ever going to accomplish much, but I doubt that every nation does this.

Do you know any nations that actually do what you're describing?

We've certainly seen a huge growth in specialized vocational high schools in America over the past couple decades--how is that not exactly what you're describing? The recent introduction of NCLB sets baseline grad tests, sure, but there's a huge difference between AP/college prep courses and spending most of one's day apprenticing as a vet assistant.

Btw, where did you get the idea that the point of the American Dream is that we all shouldn't have to work very hard? That's, like, fascinatingly off the mark.

[SamuraiBlue2002]

Originally Posted by Auriaprottu

BG, I mean that the USA sends students to school for 12 years with each student receiving pretty much the same basic instruction. I'm not sure every developed nation does it this way, even tho Belgium obviously does. I was referring to nations that career-track students beyond a certain grade and do not train them for professions if their scores aren't at a certain level. We test everyone, including students who aren't ever going to accomplish much, but I doubt that every nation does this.

Na, that's Japan.

In America students clearly don't all receive the same education.
Standardized tests are used to test basic knowledge, but schools throughout America are not even.

AP classes are a big step from normal classes. And even the content taught in AP classes is not the same at every school.

If your theory is correct then shouldn't everyone get a similar grade on these standardized test?

I know there are other factors like mentality and such, but then why do some schools continually have higher scores than others? It's not all because of teachers, but more because of the content that is taught.

[Iceblink]

A lot of schools in Chicago are moving to a year-round schedule. They go to school for three months, then get a month off... then go to school for another three.

In a way, I can see the appeal. I've thought about whether I'd like it... and I can imagine that it'd be nice to regroup and rethink things every few months...

but the truth is, instead of having the kids all forget what we worked on all year over the summer, they'd just forget what we've done the last few months over the month off.

[Demosthenes]

Originally Posted by DoctorJones24

Do you know any nations that actually do what you're describing?

We've certainly seen a huge growth in specialized vocational high schools in America over the past couple decades--how is that not exactly what you're describing? The recent introduction of NCLB sets baseline grad tests, sure, but there's a huge difference between AP/college prep courses and spending most of one's day apprenticing as a vet assistant.

Btw, where did you get the idea that the point of the American Dream is that we all shouldn't have to work very hard? That's, like, fascinatingly off the mark.

Actually, Auria is quite right. For example, the Finnish system is considered the best in the world, and they have a heavy emphasis on vocational training. By age 15 students are placed either on a vocational or academic track.

Vocational high schools in the U.S. are still the exception to the rule. The huge majority of American students attend a standard high school where they receive a liberal arts education.

Some nations don't follow this German/Finnish model and do provide almost all students with the same education. This can also work well when you have a largely homogeneous population and fairly equal wealth distribution, which obviously is not the case in the U.S.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not necessarily advocating for trade schools nor for copying Finland. But I do think, when making comparisons between and among nations, it's important to keep in mind the number of students and the diversity of the populations being served.

[uclacarlos]

Originally Posted by Demosthenes

Actually, Auria is quite right. For example, the Finnish system is considered the best in the world, and they have a heavy emphasis on vocational training. By age 15 students are placed either on a vocational or academic track.

Vocational high schools in the U.S. are still the exception to the rule. The huge majority of American students attend a standard high school where they receive a liberal arts education.

Some nations don't follow this German/Finnish model and do provide almost all students with the same education. This can also work well when you have a largely homogeneous population and fairly equal wealth distribution, which obviously is not the case in the U.S.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not necessarily advocating for trade schools nor for copying Finland. But I do think, when making comparisons between and among nations, it's important to keep in mind the number of students and the diversity of the populations being served.

Just like to point out that in such systems, elementary school teachers essentially begin the tracking process by thinking (and sometimes saying) "Oh, well, it doesn't matter if Hans, Franz, Berta and Ana don't understand what we're doing in math. They'll be in trade school anyway." And they proceed w/ the lesson w/o thinking of the very negative consequences of tracking at that age.

And how it plays out in countries w/ large immigrant population is that the immigrants get thrown into the de facto trade track, no matter their talents.

[leg_breaker]

Christ, just let kids me kids. There are diminishing returns to making kids cram for 100 hours a week anyway.