[vetshak]

I'm looking to see if anybody on the board has other suggestions for how to deal with this situation. I was fine with how I dealt with it, but I'm curious if anybody might suggest an "out" that would not have led to a player being sent off.

Tonight I'm working a closely contested boys HS game... which is nice change of pace from the multitude of 6-0 blowouts I have had for the past 3 weeks. Second half #8 white gets booked for a reckless foul in front of the bench. No complaints.

10 minutes later before a throw-in, #7 green is trying to advance forward down the field, and #8 white (the guy in the book) is standing in front of him. #8 white is putting his hands in the air (so I can clearly see he's not "holding" #7 green), but also keeps moving in front of #7 green to keep him from going past him. I'm watching this carefully to make sure it doesn't get out of hand. #7 green finally gets frustrated and pushes #8 away.

The ball has not been thrown in yet, and I have now had enough. I blow my whistle to halt the restart and call both players over and tell them to knock it off. I use my favorite line in this situation: "There's a lot of green space out here, surely both of you can find someplace that is acceptable without being the spot where the other one wants to stand."

I figure this will defuse the situation, especially because #8 white is already booked and now knows I'm paying attention to these shenanigans.

The ball is thrown in and then headed up field away from the two players, where it is being contested. As I'm watching other players challenge for the ball, one of the two miscreants (#8 white or #7 green, I can't tell because I can't afford to turn and look at them) says, "Sir, please watch the elbows!" To which the other one says, "I didn't elbow you, (inaudible)."

I have no idea what (inaudible) was, but it clearly wasn't nice, because the first one then says, "Why don't you shut the f^%k up?"

Now, if this is a USSF or an adult match, I feel like I have a lot more options (i.e., screaming "Knock it off both of you!"), and I suppose I could have done the same here. However, one player telling another to "Shut the f&^k up" falls under offensive or foul language in my book, and I feel inclined to do something about it. Yeah, if it's a pro game (which I doubt I will ever work anyway), I probably let it go, but this is HS boys.

Furthermore, I already talked to these two miscreants to let them know I was watching them. Their desire to act like spoiled brats in spite of my warning, to me, meant I needed to escalate my own response to their behavior.

So I don't know which one dropped the f-bomb. I blow the whistle to stop play and give the both a caution... which, for #8 white, big bummer, that's number two. He's gone. This being NFHS' twisted rules, his team doesn't play short because it's their "soft" red, even though that honestly did not factor into my decision. Believe me, if I could ID which one dropped the f-bomb, I would have gone with a straight red to that one and a caution to the other. As circumstance has it, those two are probably the only ones who know who said what.

White loses the game 2-1 (this was the score at the time of the incident). White coach is POed...

(Incidentally, the winning goal was a PK on a handball that he was screaming at me was inadvertent... I did not even bother engaging him when he attempted to discuss this because it was one of those clear "Making yourself bigger" infractions and I have long since abandoned all hope of ever successfully explaining that to any coach whose team is called for a PK for this.)

... and approaches me after the game to complain that the "red card" (actually, it was a second yellow) was too harsh for such a close game. He tells me there's no way his kid would ever have cursed at an opponent (like I haven't heard that before). My response was that:

A) I didn't care who cursed... they both were getting cautioned for game disrepute at that point.
B) I had warned the players, even holding up play so they would be aware I would be monitoring them;
C) His player was on a caution AND is a senior and thus should know better than to engage in any kind of argument with an opponent, ESPECIALLY after I just told him to knock it off.

So here's the question: anybody think I could or should have handled this differently?

I suspect the green player was the one who dropped the f-bomb (for many reasons, actually, but this post is long enough now as it is), but without knowing, I couldn't give both a straight red when I only heard that from one player. (Inaudible) might have been provocative inflammatory language for all I know, but you can't send off a player on the presumption that he said something awful just because another player blows a fuse at him.

I know it's possible that a player may say something inappropriate without having had anything out of line said to them that one might consider "provocative." But I have my doubts that asking them which one dropped the f-bomb would have gotten me an honest answer, especially with the specter of a straight red hanging over that answer.

To me, both players were guilty of misconduct, and with the ball in play when the argument escalated, I did not want a fight breaking out because I let it continue to escalate. So I stopped play to administer the cards. I cannot imagine stopping play and cautioning only green #7 in this situation would have possibly given me any credibility or control over the remainder of what had been a very hard-fought match to this point (I wound up with a foul count of 28, 14 aside believe it or not... way more fouls than I like to call, but I would definitely say this game needed it). Everybody on the field would have recognized #8 white had a card and my decision to only caution green #7 would have led to a likely meltdown.

Does anybody have any other ideas? Or do all of you think this was the way to go?

[Ref Flunkie]

From what I gleen from your story, I likely would NOT have cautioned both players, especially if I didn't know who dropped the F-bomb. I'll be honest, if the guy didn't yell "Shut the F up!" loud enough for the whole field to hear, I'm not giving a red card even if I know who said it (even if it is HS). Now if he calls a guy a "F-ing something", that is different, but that is besides the point.

I'm slightly unsure how exactly you handled the first dust up. Was it a very public admonishment, or was it something of a "between two players and referee" quiet discussion? Obviously you don't want to look like you aren't going to follow through on prior lines that were drawn, so if you did the "this is the LAST straw" act, then I guess you had to escilate it to a yellow, but IMO, I don't really feel this was justice, especially if the kid with the yellow card wasn't the one who said "Shut the F up". If I had any wiggle room at all, I would have pulled them aside and read them the riot act so that everyone and his brother knew they were on their last lives because at that point you in fact had no idea which one really did the thing you wanted to punish the most. For all we know, the green player (if he was smart) was trying to get the kid baited into a 2nd caution. So, in the end, I don't think I would have gone yellow-yellow.

Of course, again, language, unless it is directed AT a player, I do not get overly bent out of shape over. Just my 2 cents.

[vetshak]

RefFlunkie, thanks for your opinion.

To clarify two of your questions:

1) The admonishment of both players prior to the argument was very public, very much a broadcast message. I stopped play, went over to both players, barked at both of them and made a very publicly visual signal to indicate further misbehavior was not acceptable (waving my hands like the American football "penalty declined" signal).

2) The foul language was audible to at least 6-10 other players. The argument occurred less than 15 yards from the ball and both players were yelling. Furthermore, this field was not a stadium, and the argument occurred literally 15 yards from the fans side of the touchline where I would guess a significant number of fans heard the argument (and the foul language).

I agree with your perception of the unfairness of the outcome. One guy may have been baiting, and happily taken a caution to get the opponent sent off. That's what's bugging me about it, and I'm sure white coach's response was due to this.

I should add an interesting side note... this occurred with 12 minutes left. Green #7 subbed off (as he is forced to do in HS). He was a fairly skilled midfielder, and him going off certainly was a drawback for his team. However, his coach did not bring him back on the rest of the match. Whether he was simply mad at him for what happened, or if the green coach felt I overreacted and in keeping him off was showing some sort of empathy for the white team, I cannot say. White did not have to play short, because in HS a second yellow is what they call "soft."

The question I have (which probably doesn't have a definitive answer) is that if I follow up a public admonishment with yet another public admonishment, might that not also send the wrong message? Like, "This guy is scared to pull the red." That's a calculated gamble that might or might not work. If it doesn't, I'm going to point to that moment where I let the game get out of control.

I respect the difference of opinion, but to me at the HS level a player saying "Shut the f--- up" loud enough for 6-10 other players and innumerable fans to hear fits the description of a straight red. I don't pretend to say this is the case at every level, and certainly would not argue with the referee's right to not use a card (if he/she so chooses) in their own game (including HS games).

In this case, I knew it was one of two players, and both players were, at a minimum, guilty of game disrepute. Furthermore, I felt like if this had been during a stoppage I probably would have stepped in and prevented the escalation. As it occurred during play, I was hogtied into one of two choices:

1) Pretend not to hear it and hope it didn't turn from a verbal to a physical altercation.

2) Stop play, in which case, a verbal tongue-lashing would have been followed by a dropped ball. To me, that feels like a cop-out. I felt like if I was going to stop play, it was going to be to escalate my own response to their lack of adjustment to the first broadcast message.

I did not want to gamble by ignoring it; if a fight had broken out, it would have been my fault for not intervening earlier, and that outcome would have been far worse than what had happened. Having heard the escalation, I would have felt more culpable for not doing something about it.

[pumpkinpie]

The only question I have is when you first heard them start in on each other...one with shut the f@#k up and the other with something inaudible you said that you couldn't look back, or dare look back. My question here is why not..you have a situation that is getting out of control and needs to be addressed IMO I think this is the part of the field that demanded your attention at that moment. You said yourself that you recongnized the flash point and I think dealt appropriately with it.

For Ref Flunkie my only question is why wouldn't you do something when one player tells another player to shut the f#@k up. At any level this can cause big problems. I have seen this cause as much trouble as one guy telling another guy to f@#k off! Especially if it is very public and very loud?

[blech]

I guess my question comes from not knowing who said what. One asked you to watch the elbows, the other said that he didn't elbow (inaudible), and then the first said shut the F-- up.

I know refs who would give a red for the F-word and refs who wouldn't, but that's not really the issue since you didn't give a red for that and don't know which player said it. Moving from there, I'm not following the notion that both have earned a yellow. If you're looking for an "out" as your initial paragraph says, it's to stop play, say you don't know who said it, but you're watching both of them. I know you've warned them already, but that remains you're out.

[mdref]

Originally Posted by vetshak

A) I didn't care who cursed... they both were getting cautioned for game disrepute at that point.

Last I checked, disrepute was not a cautionable offense at any level other than USSF.

Talk to the kids and try to calm them down. We tend to forget that this is an emotional game and tempers can flare...but to throw cards left and right doesn't do justice. Don't threaten or drop corny one-liners. Talk to them at their level and understand that there is a lot of pressure on them during these games.

You have also admitted to not knowing who the guilty one was with regards to the foul language, so why punish both? Doesn't seem very fair to me...

[nylaw5]

My first thought -

Walk both kids over to their coaches - "Can you help me keep him calm so that he doesn't get another caution?".

Allow them to sub if they want and calm the guys down.

HS boys are amazingly loyal to their coaches, more so than many of the other leagues I have seen. If coaches will help you - use them. If they won't - use them anyway. They don't have to lecture the kid, they can even disagree with you....but that time with someone other than you who is putting responsibility on them to behave better, sets you both up for a smoother interaction the next time around.

I try and use my yellow cards in hs for tackles that hurt people (god knows there are enough crashes in a given game for that alone). Game disrepute, Dissent, Delay, Etc......can often be addressed with mind games and well chosen words.

[Alberto]

You guys are way too lax in this situation.

The kid for whatever reason decided to cause match management issues not once but three times. First we have a caution for a foul. Next he tries to get under the skin of the player he fouled by blocking his movements. Then he makes a comment that causes the other player to hurl an F bomb. As Vinnie Mauro said, watch for the reaction. Players don't normally hurl F bombs at other players unless provoked. Especially at high school, I doubt some kid is so Machiavellian and conniving as to say something that could cause another player to get in trouble while avoiding any similar sanction.

As to Blech's remark, you already verbally warned them. They did not listen. You have to take stronger action than another verbal admonishment. Cards are appropriate in this situation. They are not 12 years old and they know there are consequences to actions. This is the beginning of gamesmanship by players. How far can you go before the referee takes action and sanctions you.

I must also point out that I find that for many of today's youth, the notion of actions having consequences is completely lost on them.

[aek chicago]

To an extent, I also agree witn Alberto.

The kid in white already had a yellow. That's what we're all forgetting. He also had a verbal warning. If he's stupid enough to continue with the same shenanigans, then he deserves to sit and his team/coach deserves to be penalized. The referee didn't cause the "unfairness", the player in white did...to his own team.

I'll let the ocassional foul language go depedning on the circumstances, but once I tell a kid "this is a warning, next time......." well, you can bet your last dollar a card is coming out next time, and I don't give a damn what the consequences are.....If you don't follow through with a card, especially after a public admonishment, you've lost all credibility and control. My rule of thumb is one public admonishment, and then the cards are coming out. Now I have been known to run alongside a "miscreant" player ever so often and remind him that he already has a yellow (without anyone else but us two knowing) and surprisingly, it works wonder........

[Ref Flunkie]

Originally Posted by Alberto

You guys are way too lax in this situation.

The kid for whatever reason decided to cause match management issues not once but three times. First we have a caution for a foul. Next he tries to get under the skin of the player he fouled by blocking his movements. Then he makes a comment that causes the other player to hurl an F bomb.

See I really don't see all of these as match management issues. A yellow tackle may have just been that, a late tackle. That is part of the game, and as others have said, I tend to separate those out from the non-physical misconducts. White's little dance with the green player where vetshak publicly admonished them sounds like two stupid boys trying to get under one another's skin (again, perhaps the start of green's attempt to bait white). I equate the "shut the F up" confrontation to the same thing because do we really think elbows were that far up if someone on the field (besides the two players), whether it is the ARs or other coaches/players, didn't detect it as well? If I thought an opponent was trying to get the ref to think I'm throwing elbows when I'm not, I too would probably have a choice, quiet word for him.

Ultimately, I think vetshak could have gone either way in this case. My personal opinion is that if I'm having other man management issues beyond these two players and to me it appears that I CAN'T afford to look even slightly weak in the eyes of the players, (especially after a public lashing), I would go yellow-yellow and toss the one kid (at least that resolves one of your management problem areas). However, if in general the game is going well and we simply have 2 players on the field that don't seem to like each other, I might be forgiving and talk to the coaches or captains and say "Hey, if you want your two players/buddies to be around to see the end of the game, then I suggest you have a word with them". In general, if things have been relatively calm up to that point, you are likely to have more allies on the field then not, so I think you should use them if you can. In the end, it is all a case of style and whether the match needed the cards at that particular time. Vetshak made the decision for his match and his style, which is all one can really do.